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| + | {{Bug Verification Project}} |
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| − | {{Forumheader|Wiki discussion}} |
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| + | {{Infobox quest |
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| + | |games =FNV |
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| + | |type =side |
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| + | |image desc =Sergeant Lee and the NCR Correctional Facility |
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| + | |image =IFTL.jpg |
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| + | |location =[[NCR Correctional Facility]] |
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| + | |given by =[[Eddie]] |
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| + | |reward =Various weapons, armor, ammunition and items from dead Powder Gangers and NCR troopers<br />'''AND'''<br />[[New California Republic|NCR]] fame, 300 XP<br />'''OR'''<br />[[Powder Gangers]] fame, 200 XP, 100 caps, 1 Mentats, 1 Psycho, 1 Buffout |
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| + | |previous =''[[Eddie's Emissary]]'' |
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| + | |leads to = |
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| + | |related = |
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| + | |baseid ={{ID|08d0e3}} |
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| + | }}{{Games|FNV}} |
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| + | '''I Fought the Law''' is a [[Fallout: New Vegas quests#Side quests|side quest]] in ''[[Fallout: New Vegas]]''. |
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| − | <!-- Please put your content under this line. Be sure to sign your edits with four tildes ~~~~ --> |
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| − | Hi folks, |
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| + | ==Quick walkthrough== |
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| − | In response to a few recent events, I'd like to discuss the chat rules... Yes I know, another forum to change things. Hopefully this will be a bit different as for the most part I think I'm proposing changing nothing, but allowing those who feel that there is need for change to come out and let us know. I had hoped to wait until Crazy Sam's confirmation was closed before posting this, but another event I think has made one of these issues (the last) in need of discussion urgently. [[User:Agent c|Agent c]] ([[User talk:Agent c|talk]]) 12:52, August 28, 2012 (UTC) |
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| + | {{chart/start|class=mw-collapsible mw-collapsed}} |
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| − | But before we begin, lets review the chat rules: |
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| + | {{chart|quest|colspan=14|quest=Side Quest: I Fought the Law|class=va-chart-quest}} |
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| + | {{chart| | | |!| }} |
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| + | {{chart|data1|colspan=14|data1=Talk to [[Eddie]] and ask if he has any work.|class=va-chart-body}} |
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| + | {{chart| |,|-|^|-|.| }} |
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| + | {{chart|data1| |data2 |
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| + | |data1=Kill [[Chavez]]. |
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| + | |data2=Convince Chavez to leave with a [[speech]] check.|class=va-chart-body}} |
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| + | {{chart| |`|-|v|-|'| }} |
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| + | {{chart|data1|colspan=14|data1=Report back to Eddie and get your assignment.|class=va-chart-body}} |
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| + | {{chart| | | |!| }} |
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| + | {{chart|data1|colspan=14|data1=Deal with a suspicious merchant near [[Jean Sky Diving]].|class=va-chart-body}} |
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| + | {{chart| |,|-|^|-|.| }} |
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| + | {{chart|data1| |data2 |
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| + | |data1=Betray Eddie to the [[NCR]], attacking the prison. |
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| + | |data2=Kill the suspicious merchant and return to Eddie, defending the prison.|class=va-chart-body}} |
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| + | {{chart| |!| | | |!| }} |
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| + | {{chart|data1| |data2 |
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| + | |data1=Reward: Various weapons, armor, ammunition and items from dead Powder Gangers and NCR troopers<br />[[New California Republic|NCR]] fame, 300 XP<br /> |
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| + | |data2=Reward: Various weapons, armor, ammunition and items from dead Powder Gangers and NCR troopers<br />[[Powder Gangers]] fame, 200 XP, 100 caps, 1 Mentats, 1 Psycho, 1 Buffout|class=va-chart-reward}} |
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| + | {{chart/end}} |
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| + | ==Detailed walkthrough== |
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| − | ===Grounds for blocking=== |
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| + | This quest is given by [[Eddie]] at the [[NCR Correctional Facility]] in the [[NCR CF administration|administration building]]. He's the man sitting behind the desk on the second floor, surrounded by guards. Talking to him and asking how you can help out is all that is required to start this quest. |
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| − | Users who are clearly disruptive to the chat or who fail to behave appropriately towards other contributors may be blocked. The possible reasons for blocking include (but are not limited to): |
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| + | * If you acquired a "shunned" reputation with the Powder Gangers by completing the [[Ghost Town Gunfight]], you will still be able to talk to Eddie in order to receive this quest but assaulting anyone in the prison or gaining another level of infamy will turn the Powder Gangers hostile upon your entrance. Completing the [[Nipton]] quest, [[Booted]] or the [[Vault 19]] quest, [[Why Can't We Be Friends?]] may provide a sufficient boost to your faction reputation, provided you're not "Vilified." If the Powder Gangers are hostile still, you ''can'' talk to Eddie by using a [[Stealth Boy (Fallout: New Vegas)|Stealth Boy]] outside the entrance and sneaking all the way to Eddie(this however might not work). Stand up and immediately talk to Eddie and the quest can be initiated. A Stealth Boy will be required each time you go back to talk to Eddie until the quest ends with the NCR confrontation. It's also possible to acquire [[Powder Gang simple outfit]] or any other Powder Gangers outfits (also including [[Powder Gang guard armor]]) to disguise yourself and infiltrate the camp, then take out everybody besides Eddie in the Administration Building with a silenced weapon. Once only Eddie is left, it's advised you save and walk up and talk to him before he sees through your disguise. Once done talking get out of there as fast as possible again. |
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| − | # Personal attacks, bigotry and/or racist or sexist name calling. |
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| − | # Harassment and/or sexual harassment. |
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| − | # Extreme use of profanity/cursing or directing it towards another user is not permitted. |
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| − | # Violation of personal privacy. This includes revealing personal information about users (e.g. real name, location, age, gender, etc) and violating confidentiality on particular issues (such as issues asked to be kept confidential by other users or administrators). |
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| − | # Linking to external sources, such as websites, which violate the aforementioned rules. Notably, publicly linking to websites such as Facebook or MySpace that violate personal privacy, is not permitted without prior consent from the user whose privacy might be violated. |
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| − | # [[Wikipedia:Troll (Internet)|Trolling]] or general irritation or disruption of other users. This often includes, but is not limited to; excessive usage of capital letters, punctuation marks, deliberate distortions of the English language (such as "133t" or "Dolan" speak), and excessive usage of non-English languages. |
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| − | # [[m:Don't be a dick|Being a dick]]. As a guideline, don't go out of your way to irritate others. (And especially do NOT try to test the admin's and/or chat moderator's patience and/or limits.) Vicious abuse is grounds for sanctions. |
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| − | # Whining. Users who ask for something from another chat user and are refused it should not stoop to complaining. It is acceptable to be persistent, but in a mature manner. |
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| − | # Discussing real-world politics and/or religion without unanimous consent. If someone doesn't want to talk about them, drop the subject. |
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| − | # Spamming. The meaning should be obvious. Don't say the same thing six times because no one is responding to you. Don't keep yammering on about a subject nobody cares about. Meaningless and/or random posts can also be considered spam, alongside disruptive internet memes. |
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| + | The first task you'll be given is to "take care" of a [[Powder Ganger]] named [[Chavez]], who Eddie believes is setting up his own crew without permission. He is located at [[Powder Ganger camp south]], which is just south of the prison. You can either convince him to "move on" with 30 Speech skill (35 XP) or kill him (20 XP, 80 XP total if his guards are killed). Talking to him without being able to pass the speech skill will result in combat. Killing him (and/or the other Powder Gangers with him) won't cause any reputation loss with the Powder Gangers, and interestingly, his "crew" may not turn hostile if you kill Chavez in front of them. Whichever way you decide to do it, return to Eddie and let him know Chavez is handled. |
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| − | ==The Review== |
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| − | ===Rules 1, 2, 4, 5, 8, and 10 === |
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| − | Basically I think we're all right here and these rules have absolutely no controversy about them. This section on the off chance someone feels the need to discuss them in detail or suggest a change. |
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| − | (nb - Rule 7 was in this section, but has now been spun out.) |
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| + | The second task is to "deal with" a suspicious traveling merchant over at [[Jean Sky Diving]]. If you talk to him, you can find out that he's actually a bounty hunter with 6 [[Intelligence]] or 30 Speech (only the speech option provides 30 XP). You can then end the conversation and report back to Eddie, or try to shake him down for a "toll" (30 Speech required, 30 XP). The bounty hunter may attack you even after you convince him to leave, even if you are not dressed as a Powder Ganger. You can also "deal" with him at any point by killing him for no [[Karma]] loss and 20 XP, though he carries a stimpak and will use it if attacked. Report back to Eddie. |
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| − | ===Rule 1=== |
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| + | Finally, you'll be asked to find out about the [[NCR]]'s plans for the prison. Head to [[Primm]] and seek out either [[Johnson Nash]] or [[Hayes|Lt. Hayes]]. Nash will cough up the information for 100 caps (50 caps if you have 30 Barter or for free if you have 30 Speech, whichever is chosen results in 30 XP). Hayes will only tell you that military orders are classified, unless you already know - either by pickpocketing the "[[Military orders]]" off him, and/or by getting the information from Nash first. Once you have the information, you can either report back to Eddie, or betray him to Lt. Hayes, and help the [[NCR]] take back the prison. |
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| − | Dose ''just play nice'' cover this one ? |
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| + | If you report back to Eddie, he'll reward you with 1 [[Buffout (Fallout: New Vegas)|Buffout]], 1 [[Psycho (Fallout: New Vegas)|Psycho]], 1 [[Mentats (Fallout: New Vegas)|Mentats]], 100 caps, 200 XP and some Powder Gangers fame. He'll say that the NCR is already here, and tell you to feel free to kill some of them on the way out. As soon as you exit the building, the assault will begin, and NCR troopers pour into the facility and attack. You won't lose reputation with the NCR for informing on them; however, all the soldiers assaulting the base will be hostile to you, which will likely cause NCR reputation loss as a result of shooting back (only if you kill any of the soldiers). Alternately, if you change into [[NCR armor]] before exiting the building, the NCR invaders will be neutral, but some Powder Gangers will be hostile. |
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| − | Seriously I think it is clear to most Racism, Sexism, Ageism and honest slurs against an others religion, political view, fashion sense or choice in video games when spoken with honest hatred or other wise undefined ill intent, then they are all wrong. |
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| + | If Powder Gangers defeat the attackers you can speak with Eddie who will thank you. You will gain reputation. |
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| − | * The question is: What should be actionable ? |
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| + | If you instead choose to betray Eddie to the NCR, you can choose the dialog path with Lt. Hayes where you ask to help in the assault. He'll tell you to rendezvous with Sergeant [[Lee (soldier)|Lee]], located just to the south east of the prison (on a hill, approximately in line between [[Powder Ganger camp south]] and the prison). Once you initiate dialog with him, he'll give you a short "briefing," and the assault will begin. The quest will end once Eddie is dead, but as the Powder Gangers will rush out into the courtyard for the battle, Eddie will most likely be one of the last Powder Gangers alive anyway. You'll be awarded 300 XP for completing the quest, and gain reputation with the NCR. The NCR reputation is gained by speaking with Lee after Eddie dies. If Lee dies during the assault, you won't gain NCR reputation. |
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| − | I think, intent, exact context should be taken into account. |
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| + | Lee may mumble something about reporting back to Lt. Hayes after the quest has finished but, if [[My Kind of Town]] has already been completed, he will be gone from the NCR camp at Primm. You may run into him later at [[Camp Forlorn Hope]]. It is possible that Hayes and some of the troops under his command were sent to the Hope, and is why some troops at Forlorn Hope say that they got reinforced by troops from [[Primm]]. |
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| − | TOSH.O, the Chappelle show, the Daily show & all the Comedy Central roasts are irreverent and beyond disrespectful when taken out of context. Yet they intend no harm and so they are considered by many, many of the folks from all ages, races, sexes and social code to be uplifting fun. |
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| + | ==Journal entries== |
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| − | My point is : All rule interpretation should be considered with an honest eye toward intent and exact context before jumping to any conclusions. |
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| + | {{Quest stage table |
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| + | |stage1 =1 |
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| + | |desc1 =Deal with [[Chavez]]. |
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| + | |stage2 =2 |
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| + | |desc2 =Tell Eddie that you dealt with Chavez. |
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| + | |stage3 =3 |
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| + | |desc3 =Track down the suspicious merchant and get rid of him. |
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| + | |stage4 =4 |
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| + | |desc4 =Return to Eddie. |
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| + | |stage5 =5 |
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| + | |desc5 =Talk to the locals in Primm and learn what – if anything - the NCR is planning for the correctional facility. |
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| + | |stage6 =6 |
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| + | |desc6 =Report back to Eddie with information on the NCR's planned attack. |
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| + | |status6 =finish |
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| + | |stage7 =7 |
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| + | |desc7 =(Optional) Betray Eddie by offering Lieutenant Hayes assistance in retaking the Prison. |
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| + | |stage8 =8 |
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| + | |desc8 =Rendezvous with Sergeant Lee. |
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| + | |stage9 =9 |
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| + | |desc9 =Kill Eddie. |
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| + | |status9 =finish |
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| + | }} |
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| + | ==Notes== |
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| − | [[File:User SP Bad Medicine.jpg]] [[User:SaintPain|SaintPain]]→ '''Look for me Dec 22 Y'all know what I'm say'n.''' 02:51, August 31, 2012 (UTC) |
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| + | * It is possible to kill all the [[Powder Gangers]] before the assault on the prison (including [[Eddie]]) and complete the quest (by implementing [[Sneak]] kills with a silenced weapon to avoid Powder Gangers infamy, then kill Eddie when you're told to report to Sergeant [[Lee (soldier)|Lee]] - reporting back to Sergeant Lee after killing Eddie will generate an automatic mission success). |
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| + | ** Killing Eddie prior to that point will create a mission failure. |
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| + | ** By doing this it is also possible to gain the rewards for helping Eddie (300 XP instead of the normal 200), only become shunned (camps won't attack the player) by the Powder Gangers ([[Ghost Town Gunfight#Notes|See Notes]]) and gain the reputation increase with the NCR. Speak to Eddie prior to killing him and let him know about the attack, kill him and equip NCR faction armor (armor optional), then run outside and through the visitor's center to speak with Lee as he is running (from the left) inside. Keep running after speaking to him and over the ridge if you lack NCR faction armor. He'll reward only NCR reputation and not Powder Ganger infamy, as the latter would normally occur at this point but doesn't due to turning the quest in first to Eddie. Similarly, the player gains the 300 XP for the NCR completion even though the quest is finished by Eddie. |
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| + | *** However, if the player uses the above method, all the NCR troopers inside the administration center will be hostile to the player from that point on (even days or weeks later) if the player ever enters the area without an NCR faction disguise equipped. |
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| + | * It is recommended that this mission be completed before you complete ''Ghost Town Gunfight'' unless you decide to support Joe Cobb/Powder Gangers or follow one of the alternative methods detailed in that page's notes. |
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| + | * Powder gangers in the scattered camps are hostile to the player until Neutral or Shunned reputation is established, avoid killing them loudly to be able to speak to Eddie initially. |
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| + | * If you have a hostile reputation with the Powder Gangers (hated, vilified), you will be attacked on sight by Eddie's bodyguards and named non-player characters ([[Hannigan]], [[Dawes]], etc.), even if disguised as a Powder Ganger. Being unable to talk to Eddie will make it impossible to obtain and/or complete this quest without the use of a Stealth Boy. |
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| + | ** Correction: it is possible to talk to Eddie without a Stealth Boy, even if you are vilified by the Powder Gangers. The easiest way to do this is to kill Powder Gangers who can see through your disguise (Dawes, Carter, Hannigan, bodyguards, etc), and stealth kill all other Powder Gangers (you can leave Meyers alone). You will probably have to remove and put your Powder Gangers faction armor back on to reset your rep back to neutral, and also wait around until they no longer sense you, so they no longer appear as hostile. Using this technique, you can get rid of every Powder Ganger at the NCR Correctional Facility except for Eddie and Meyers. Then, every time you want to talk to Eddie, run in and talk to him before he has a chance to get up. When dialogue ends, run out of the room so he can't see you and turn hostile. |
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| + | * Killing all of Eddie's guards stealthily may allow you to get to Eddie and initiate dialog without hostilities, as a workaround for the above issue. If he becomes hostile when you approach him after his guards are dead, try running quickly at him and repeatedly trying to talk. If you get to him before he stands up, he will talk to you. |
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| + | * If you want to help the Powder Gangers or sit back and let the [[NCR]] and Gangers fight it out (without betraying them), it is recommended that you visit the Cell Blocks and the Visitor Center, so that more Gangers will join the fight. This will lead to a slightly more even fight. |
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| + | * If you want to be certain to complete the quest, (and not intervene), you will have to visit each cell block, otherwise the NCR will just kill the Powder Gangers in the yard, then the Admin building. After Eddie is killed the NCR troops will go into idle mode and walk around the building leaving the Powder Gangers alive in other buildings. One named Powder Ganger may remain in one of the cell blocks, (a sneak kill if you want to keep your rep intact). |
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| + | * You can "arm" Powder Gangers before the fight if you want them to win. Just reverse pickpocket your weapons and armor in to their inventory before the battle (before you tell Eddie about the attack). Don't forget to supply them with ammunition for new weapons. Arming them with [[armor piercing]] ammunition is especially effective since that will negate [[NCR]] troops armor advantage. Single bullet is enough, non-player characters get unlimited supply automatically. Steal their regular ammunition to ensure they use AP one. In order for them to equip new items, enter any building and save/reload or go to different game-cell and come back. |
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| + | * So long as you don't complete the last section of this quest the [[NCR Correctional Facility]] admin building's refrigerator will re-spawn 3 to 6 random food items at least once every game week. Stealing these items will still result in a small loss of Karma, and if caught, the Powder Gangers will attack. |
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| − | :any communication has two critical and inseparable Parts; how the message is sent, and how the message is recieved. When a message is "sent" as a joke and "recieved" as something else, then the "sender" is obliged to stop as soon as informed of this (and a warning may be appropriate), if after this they do not then it is most certainly actionable, joke or not. Certain behaviours, like using certain sensitive words in the wrong way (or in some cases at all) are always actionable. [[User:Agent c|Agent c]] ([[User talk:Agent c|talk]]) 08:40, August 31, 2012 (UTC) |
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| + | * If you have low Intelligence when reporting to Eddie after dealing with the bounty hunter, you will say "I got rid of the bunny hunter." |
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| + | * Although the player can [[pickpocket]] the attack orders from [[Hayes|Lt. Hayes]] before the quest, the player will still be unable to initiate the attack on the [[Powder Gangers]] or speak to [[Hayes|Lt. Hayes]] about the attack at all until the player is given the choice during the quest (this also mean the player cannot complete this quest if they are hated by the Powder Gangers). |
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| + | ==Behind the scenes== |
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| − | ===Rule 3 - Profanity and language=== |
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| + | * This quest is a reference to the song of the same name by Sonny Curtis & the Crickets, more famously covered by the Bobby Fuller Four in 1965 and The Clash in 1979. |
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| − | There has been a suggestion that we need to tighten up the langauge rules, and make profanity and "adult content" against the rules. The suggestion has been that this may make our chatroom more welcoming to newcomers. Others feel the opposite, that the current regeme allows them to feel relaxed as they talk the same way as they do in their everyday lives. How do you all feel about the current rules, are they too tight, too loose, or just right? |
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| + | {{FNVCC}} |
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| + | *A number of cut and partially completed dialogue options exist which point towards the final portion of the quest having had additional options for helping out. In particular, a number of incomplete topics would have allowed the Courier to offer suggestions as to how Eddie could better defend the facility, including posting more guards and placing snipers on the guard towers. |
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| + | * The Courier was also being given the option to free Chavez from the prison.<ref>[[Pick the lock to Chavez's cell]]</ref> |
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| + | {{FNVCC|end}} |
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| + | ==Bugs== |
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| − | :Personally I think they're fine the way they are. I've tried to represent all of the major points of view here, but I am definately in the limited policing of this allows people to feel relaxed and natural. Fallout is an adult orientated series, and this wiki is Nukapedia: The Fallout wiki; it isn't the My Little Pony wiki where kids and those unable to deal with such language and concepts are more likely to visit (that is of course not to say that (older) MLP fans aren't welcome here). [[User:Agent c|Agent c]] ([[User talk:Agent c|talk]]) |
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| + | * {{Platforms|xbox360|ps3|pc}} Completion of this quest in favor of the NCR will not register the proper result. Even though you gain the fame for success, [[Mr. New Vegas]] will report the mission as a failure, as will the ending narration. {{verify|verified}} |
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| + | * {{Platforms|ps3}} Sgt. Lee may freeze on the steps to the admin building and will not finish dialogue - thus preventing NCR fame. Shooting weapon out of his hand which will turn Lee hostile but then holstering weapon immediately which will return Lee to turn friendly will unfreeze him. {{verify|verified}} |
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| + | * {{Platforms|ps3}} If the player passes the Intelligence or Speech check to make the bounty hunter admit he's there to collect Powder Ganger bounties, the question "So what are you still doing here?" will still be available. If selected, he will answer, "Uh, you know, just filling up water and stuff." This response is in support of his cover story rather than the truth he has just admitted. {{verify|verified}} |
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| + | * {{Platforms|Xbox360}} The explosions that opened the entrances for the NCR troops will not detonate mines or c4, giving an easy way to finish this quest however you will gain infamy from the NCR. {{Verify|22:06, February 6, 2013 (UTC)}} |
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| + | ==References== |
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| − | :Profanity and "adult content" is surely of no concern here, we are, or should be, mature enough to handle a few stray foul words and lewd conversations. Profanity is part of everyday life, a means of expression, to outright ban the use would be to section off a great way to sum up our feelings. Furthermore, issues would arise when certain words may be seen as "profanity" but are simply not as such, example of this would be "Bastard Sword" a medieval weapon which does contain profanity, this causes no end of disputes as to whether or not it is still deemed as acceptable or not. |
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| + | {{References}} |
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| − | :To help sum up my feelings on the ridiculous notion of swearing as "uncouth", here is the ever wonderful Stephen Fry on the subject: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s_osQvkeNRM |
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| − | :[[file:Neko-signature.png|x28px|User Talk:Gothic Neko|link=User_Talk:Gothic_Neko]] [[User:Gothic_Neko|Gothic Neko]]<sup>[[User Talk:Gothic_Neko|Neko's Haunt]]</sup> 13:10, August 28, 2012 (UTC) |
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| + | {{Navbox quests FNV}} |
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| − | This requires no change. People may and will take offence to certain things said, but that will never change with any tightening-up of the rules. Profanity in itself is not malignant as long as it is not directed to another user. {{User:SigmaDelta54/Sig}} 17:46, August 28, 2012 (UTC) |
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| + | [[Category:Fallout: New Vegas side quests]] |
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| − | :This wiki is based around an M-rated game with profane language, violence, and sexual references. If we can't handle someone saying the word "fuck", then we shouldn't even be here. [[User:Tocinoman|<font color= "580000" size= "+1"> ~ '''Toci''' ~ </font>]][[User talk:Tocinoman|<font color= "333300"> <sup>''Go ahead, make my day.''</sup> </font>]] 22:59, August 28, 2012 (UTC) |
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| + | [[Category:Powder Ganger quests]] |
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| + | [[ru: Путь исправления]] |
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| − | This rule needs to completely deleted. It makes no sense to have a rule like this on a site about a game where it allows sex, gore, violence, drugs, swearing, etc. People who get offended when a person says "sonuvabitch!" not to the user but to a topic, or jokingly state "you lovable bastard" to another, then they do not deserve to be on this wikia, or play the game series, and I myself will direct them to a more suitable wikia that is more user-friendly to them, such as MLP or Victorious. The other bone I got to pick with this rule is the fact it literally clashes with most of the rules we placed. I mean look at the rule for example: |
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| − | "Extreme use of profanity/cursing or directing it towards another user is not permitted." |
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| − | right there it clashes with 1, 2, aaaand 10. There's absolutely no point in this rule to exist as it's absorbed into these other rules. A user yelling out "SHITCOCK" or "FUCK FUCKERY" more then 5 times is considered spamming as it is. A user putting 5-10 "fucks" in their one sentence is also might as well considered spamming to the point I would ask: "that's a beautiful word, do not make it the new 'the', mmmkay?" Telling someone to go fuck themselves and their kind? Well buddy, you just broke 1 and 2 combined! Telling a female she's a 'sexy bitch'? Guess you really love being #2 in the spotlight eh? These are just examples of this thing clashing and basically being 1,2, and 10 combined. There is no point whatsoever in this rule. My "2 Cents" on the matter. |
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| − | P.S.---TLDR; Offended you are? A FUCK I DON'T GIVE--[[User:Zerginfestor|Zerginfestor]] ([[User talk:Zerginfestor|talk]]) 23:11, August 28, 2012 (UTC) |
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| − | Never limit the use of profanity. Simple as, after all - kids under the age of 13 won't be able to use the site because of COPPA. So, we can continue cussing all we want. [[File:applejack.png|35px|link=User:Gauzz Rifle]][[User talk:Gauzz Rifle|<font color= "F3C35D"><sup>''"С нами Бог. Remember, no ponies."''</sup></font>]] |
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| − | I find this the most important part of rule #3 ""Extreme use of profanity/'''cursing or directing it towards another user is not permitted."''' |
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| − | * The use of profanity in general is not so much the issue as I see it. It is profanity directed at others directly that is the offence that should be ''enforced''. |
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| − | As I have mentioned else wear, I self impose a vow to redouble my own efforts to avoid using profanity online. I once went a whole year with only the rarest of exceptions when exclamation got the better of me. I do not expect others to take any such vow or make any promise. I simply state this as '''a token of my support for rule #3 as it pertains to aiming profanity at others. Such actions only serve to bait heightened disagreements and ill will.''' |
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| − | [[File:User SP Bad Medicine.jpg]] [[User:SaintPain|SaintPain]]→ '''Look for me Dec 22 Y'all know what I'm say'n.''' 00:36, August 30, 2012 (UTC) |
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| − | I'm not a fan of bad language myself, but I ain't fond of having mods playing momma and passing curse jars either. Folks who play Fallout and hang on the chat are big enough to deal with a few four-letter words, and if they ain't then I reckon they shouldn't be there in the first place. [[User:CharlesLeCheck|'''CharlesLeCheck''']] [[File:Icon_check.png|x20px|link=User talk:CharlesLeCheck]] 15:23, August 31, 2012 (UTC) |
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| − | I'm sorry but this is the most important step to make the chat a friendlier and safer place. There is no need to use bad language and it only offends people and make them feel bad. There is nothing you can say using bad words that you can't with nice words. Sexual and innapropriate language has to be prohibted at all costs from the chat and the wiki. There is no need to offend other people and it shouldn't be allowed and tolerated. [[User:Corniolio|Corniolio]] ([[User talk:Corniolio|talk]]) 03:32, September 2, 2012 (UTC) |
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| − | :If someone can't tolerate M rated laguage coming on a wiki based around M rated games, then perhaps they should find somewhere more acclimated for them. [[File:UserGreatMara.png|25px|User:Great_Mara|link=User:Great_Mara]]<sup>[[User talk:Great_Mara|Message]]</sup> 03:40, September 2, 2012 (UTC) |
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| − | ===Rule 6 - Trolling=== |
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| − | Trolling is bad, however there is a suggestion that this rule needs some clarification. We all know how annoying it is when chat is "raided" by a group of trolls from another wiki, however it seems that some wikis feel that this has been on occasion arranged from here. The question is what should a moderator/admin/etc do if they are aware of an attempt to mass troll another wiki. |
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| − | There seem to be two schools of thought - We are only concerned with what happens here and that as long as the trolling does not occur in "Nukapedia space" it is none of our affair, the other school being that when this happens from our chatroom it negatively effects the wiki as a whole, and the "conspiracy" if you like to troll does indeed happen in our space - giving our mod an obligation to act: to kick/ban in line with the normal guidelines here and/or alert the ongoing wiki to the upcoming problem. |
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| − | So, do you feel there is an obligation for chat moderators (etc) to act if/when they become aware of that are designed to disrupt other wikis, and if so what do you feel the result this action should be. |
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| − | :I believe that if a conspiracy to troll occurs here, this is within our remit, and that at least a tip to the receiving wiki is warranted. I think we should be at least kicking to prevent this being discussed here. You don't want people to troll our chatroom, don't use ours to support trolling methods. Fair and simple. [[User:Agent c|Agent c]] ([[User talk:Agent c|talk]]) |
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| − | ::My view is that whatever happens outside the wiki is none of our concern. However, if planing or inciting of unbecoming activities against other places happens here, we have a duty stop it. Punishment for doing this should be the same as for any other ordinary violation of rules. [[User:Limmiegirl|<font color= "purple"> '''Limmiegirl''' </font>]][[File:Lildeneb.png|20px]][[User talk:Limmiegirl|<font color= "purple"> <sup>''Talk! ♪''</sup> </font>]] 13:06, August 28, 2012 (UTC) |
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| − | :I have to agree with Agent c on this one. If we are under the impression users are instigating a raid or troll attempt on this wiki, on another wiki, or site, then it should be on our best interest to stop them immediately. Kicking those who initially started it should set an example for anyone else wishing to follow suit. [[file:Neko-signature.png|x28px|User Talk:Gothic Neko|link=User_Talk:Gothic_Neko]] [[User:Gothic_Neko|Gothic Neko]]<sup>[[User Talk:Gothic_Neko|Neko's Haunt]]</sup> 13:10, August 28, 2012 (UTC) |
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| − | :I agree with Limmie 100%. {{User:SigmaDelta54/Sig}} 18:36, August 28, 2012 (UTC) |
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| − | The term '''Trolling''' needs definition as a whole. but as the topic so far seems focused on groups here is my take on Trolling groups. |
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| − | * If a group conspires i.e. goes out of their way and plots to ''disrupt and or harass another'' then that is a act by definition, "malice of forethought". One person can conspire to do wrong but a "conspiracy" requires 3 or more. Any coordinated effort to act in a hostile manor is worse the "subjective" term trolling as it requires conscious effort with an obvious intent. |
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| − | [[File:User SP Bad Medicine.jpg]] [[User:SaintPain|SaintPain]]→ '''Look for me Dec 22 Y'all know what I'm say'n.''' 01:59, August 31, 2012 (UTC) |
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| − | ===Rule 7 - Don't be a dick=== |
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| − | Perhaps being a dick can be rephrased. I know that it's a legitimate term, but when you warn a user to not be a dick, they often become even more agitated. Even worse when you ban a user and tell them it was because they were a dick. I think people will be less volatile should we call it something like "Don't be offensive" or "Be respectful". Otherwise the rule itself is fine, if not open to interpretation. [[File:Yes Man default.png|25px|link=User:Yes-Man]][[File:User Avatar talk.png|13px|link=User talk:Yes-Man]] 04:15, August 29, 2012 (UTC) |
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| − | I think my point was missed. Rule 7 states '''Don't be a dick''' in accordance to [http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Don%27t_be_a_dick the general rule] of... well, not being a dick. Yet frankly common users unfamiliar with chat rules are often a bit agitated when they're asked not to be a dick, which often either leads to a situation where they think they're being insulted when it's just an attempt at enforcing rules or the user in question claiming that the "mean ol' admins" are allowed to call them names etc. I thought in order to combat this, the rule could be rephrased... y'know, something that wouldn't set an already annoyed user off when they're asked to abide Rule 7. [[File:Yes Man default.png|25px|link=User:Yes-Man]][[File:User Avatar talk.png|13px|link=User talk:Yes-Man]] 11:45, August 29, 2012 (UTC) |
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| − | :Maybe just a more general "Be Nice"? [[User:Agent c|Agent c]] ([[User talk:Agent c|talk]]) 12:09, August 29, 2012 (UTC) |
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| − | ::I disagree. "Don't be a dick" and "Be nice" are not synonymous - one can be neither of them. Many times I am not "nice" nor am I "being a dick". It does not matter if they are agitated by having to follow our rules or be warned of them. It is a valid term and has seen inveterate usage on many sites. "You are ''being'' a dick" is different than "You ''are'' a dick", as the latter is an insult and the first one is not. The rule is fine as it is right now. {{User:SigmaDelta54/Sig}} 17:48, August 29, 2012 (UTC) |
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| − | how about A simple few words, Don't be rude? ([[User:Wildwes7g7|Wildwes7g7]] ([[User talk:Wildwes7g7|talk]]) 20:43, August 29, 2012 (UTC)) |
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| − | I'm fully aware that the rule works and the wording makes sense, that's not what I'm arguing. But there have been situations that have arisen when a user is asked not to be a dick, and unfamiliar with chat rules they take offence by this. Something like "Be respectful of other members in chat" is a bit less volatile, so if someone is being a nuisance, you can ask them to show respect rather than call them a dick, the latter of which is more likely to escalate the situation. [[File:Yes Man default.png|25px|link=User:Yes-Man]][[File:User Avatar talk.png|13px|link=User talk:Yes-Man]] 06:06, August 30, 2012 (UTC) |
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| − | :Ignorance of the rules is no excuse; if someone wished to debate that they felt a ban for being a dick is obscene and insulting, then they have admitted to not reading the rules to why it is called "being a dick". The rule is fine as is, changing it to something more "polite" for the sake of profanity, which as I've stated before is lunacy, reduces the meaning. "Don't be a dick", it's simple and most should be able to understand it without us over-exemplifying the rule. [[file:Neko-signature.png|x28px|User Talk:Gothic Neko|link=User_Talk:Gothic_Neko]] [[User:Gothic_Neko|Gothic Neko]]<sup>[[User Talk:Gothic_Neko|Neko's Haunt]]</sup> 13:43, August 30, 2012 (UTC) |
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| − | ::Neko summed it up very well. Just because the rule itself is "Don't be a dick" does ''not'' mean one must admonish someone by saying "Don't be a dick". There are many "less-volatile" alternatives to warning someone about the "Don't be a dick" rule. Perhaps I could take offence in someone telling me to "not be rude" (unlikely), but it will be just as well. We cannot modify our rules just so certain users will not take offence to being warned of them. {{User:SigmaDelta54/Sig}} 14:24, August 30, 2012 (UTC) |
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| − | You guys are ridiculously wrong, rules are to be respectful, they're not supposed to make someone feel small for breaking A little rule, when you are arrested for disorderly conduct, you are arrested for disorderly conduct, not for the crap statement above which basically is the same thing, maybe people would feel A little more motivated to quit breaking the rule if they're handled neutrally-at the least! ([[User:Wildwes7g7|Wildwes7g7]] ([[User talk:Wildwes7g7|talk]]) 00:37, August 31, 2012 (UTC)) |
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| − | :This makes little to no sense. People can choose what "makes them feel small", and that is a variety of things that we cannot ever control. Rules are rules and they are to be followed. The current phrasing of the rule is short and simple, and a good representation of what is expected, along with a full (and rather well-written) [http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Don%27t_be_a_dick essay], which also serves as the rule's namesake. And the last bit is quite ridiculous: if they are not "motivated" enough to stop their transgressions of the rules, then they will be banned. It's plain and simple. {{User:SigmaDelta54/Sig}} 00:47, August 31, 2012 (UTC) |
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| − | ::There's another aspect to the "Don't be a dick" rule, and that is that it could easily be used as an excuse to personal attacks using just that word: dick. If someone - well versed with the rules, at least - were to insult another using the exact term "dick" then it could easily be excused by the offender stating that they were simply reprimanding the victim about not being the aforementioned phallic organ. Now, most of the time this can be an easily discarded as a weak explanation, but nevertheless it makes the process of taking action against a user harder and longer, maybe even requiring chatlogs and the like. This, as well as the aforementioned reason of Yessie, I feel are good reasons to change the name. If anything, it'd make our life easier if we didn't have to deal with newcomers who get all pissy every 45 seconds; weak an argument as that is. Hugs [[file:MadeMan2.png|20px|link=User:Scarface11235]][[User talk:Scarface11235|<font color= "Purple"> <sup>''"Say 'ello to my little friend!"''</sup> </font>]] |
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| − | :::Again, from wikipedia: ''"Telling someone "Don't be a dick" is generally a dick-move — especially if true"''. So the situation you described shouldn't be an issue at all, since reprimanding somebody that way is by definition a violation of the very rule, and therefore not a valid defense. [[User:Limmiegirl|<font color= "purple"> '''Limmiegirl''' </font>]][[File:Lildeneb.png|20px]][[User talk:Limmiegirl|<font color= "purple"> <sup>''Talk! ♪''</sup> </font>]] 16:57, August 31, 2012 (UTC) |
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| − | From [http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Don%27t_be_a_dick Wikipedia]: {{quotation|'''Being a dick isn't equivalent to being uncivil or impolite''' (though incivility and rudeness often accompany dickery). '''One may be perfectly civil and follow every rule of etiquette and still be a dick'''. Standard dick-moves, for example, include such things as willfully (but politely) drawing attention to genuine (but inconsequential) errors in spelling or grammar of an interlocutor's comments, disregarding the Chomskian distinction between language competence and language performance. So '''the use of a vulgar term here to convey the concept is intentional''', and distinguishes this principle from issues of politeness and other protocols of interaction.}} |
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| − | The highlighted parts I believe speak for themselves as to where my position in this issue stands. [[User:Limmiegirl|<font color= "purple"> '''Limmiegirl''' </font>]][[File:Lildeneb.png|20px]][[User talk:Limmiegirl|<font color= "purple"> <sup>''Talk! ♪''</sup> </font>]] 16:19, August 31, 2012 (UTC) |
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| − | ===Rule 9 - Unanimous consent to Real World Discussion=== |
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| − | Rule 9 can be controversial. On one hand we're having to censor real world political discussions against the will of the majority in chat; on the other hand these debates can get emotionally charged and having rule 9 to stop these discussions before disruption occurs or tempers flare. |
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| − | However, sometimes Rule 9 can be used as a troll shield - a debate is stirred up by a user, who after "poking the bear" runs to rule 9 to shut down the conversation - every now and then if you dont realise what you've gotten into is fine, but continued use of the rule in this way is kind dickish, isn't it? |
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| − | So, how do you feel about rule 9, too harsh? Not harsh enough? Do protections need to be in place to squish the use of rule 9 as a troll shield? |
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| − | :I think my views in this, although I've tried to be fair and balanced are clear. Keep rule 9, but prevent persistent misuse of it. [[User:Agent c|Agent c]] ([[User talk:Agent c|talk]]) |
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| − | :Keep rule 9, yes, though I'd prefer to see it used less and less. This should be more for the wider audience to disagree with, if only one person disagrees with the conversation then it should not be enforced so quickly, a consensus must be agreed upon that the conversation should be dropped and not on the whim of a single user. [[file:Neko-signature.png|x28px|User Talk:Gothic Neko|link=User_Talk:Gothic_Neko]] [[User:Gothic_Neko|Gothic Neko]]<sup>[[User Talk:Gothic_Neko|Neko's Haunt]]</sup> 13:10, August 28, 2012 (UTC) |
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| − | :I think rule 9 needs to be changed. The conversation shouldn't have to end just because one person doesn't like it. It should be a majority of chat wanting to shut it down, not just one user. Perhaps at least half of the active chatting users must agree to stop the debate. [[File:VictorFaceMonitor.png|25px|link=User:Victor the Securitron]] [[User:Victor the Securitron|Victor the Insane Cowboy Robot]] 16:27, August 28, 2012 (UTC) |
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| − | :I disagree. The point of rule 9 is to generate a comfortable atmosphere for everyone, regardless of their background or views. Keep in mind that there is are Private Messages and even large-group messages that are available with some modifications. But otherwise, I think the judgement of present mods/admins is sufficient to see Rule 9 not be misused and abused. {{User:SigmaDelta54/Sig}} 18:32, August 28, 2012 (UTC) |
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| − | :I have to say that rule 9 should be here. It's a great rule with many benefits. We have no idea how the subject might make others feel. I personally hate talking about these kinds of stuff in chat. Sig also brings a point. It must not be misused, as it can easily be.--[[file:Fo2_NCR_Flag.png|40px|link=User:For NCR]][[User talk:For NCR|<font color= "Orange"> <sup>''A Safe People is a Strong People!''</sup> </font>]] 18:43, August 28, 2012 (UTC) |
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| − | :I think the rule would be better off saying something along the lines of "no user who wishes to be part of a real-world politics/religion discussion shall be forced to participate in said discussion should they wish not to." This way, the user who feels that the topic is in any way inappropriate for them will not be a part of the conversation, and the rest of the chat is not interrupted. That's just the way I look at it. [[User:Tocinoman|<font color= "580000" size= "+1"> ~ '''Toci''' ~ </font>]][[User talk:Tocinoman|<font color= "333300"> <sup>''Go ahead, make my day.''</sup> </font>]] 22:59, August 28, 2012 (UTC) |
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| − | ::I don't understand, how is anyone supposed to force someone to participate in a discussion? {{User:SigmaDelta54/Sig}} 23:20, August 28, 2012 (UTC) |
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| − | :::Lol. I'm not entirely sure. I'm just brainstorming here, but it was something like not talking directly to someone about a subject they don't wish to talk about. [[User:Tocinoman|<font color= "580000" size= "+1"> ~ '''Toci''' ~ </font>]][[User talk:Tocinoman|<font color= "333300"> <sup>''Go ahead, make my day.''</sup> </font>]] 23:57, August 28, 2012 (UTC) |
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| − | I am fine with how the rules are now. We need almost nothing added or taken away in my opinion. The rule nine troll shield I agree needs to go. I am in favor of toci's change, [[file:Pigeon Approved.png|20px|link=User:Denis517]][[User talk:Denis517|<font color= "Purple"> <sup>''"THE WABBAJACK!"''</sup> </font>]] 23:12, August 28, 2012 (UTC) |
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| − | For me it's the same case as the potty mouth rule, folks who hang around a chat for a mature game should be mature enough to deal with topics like religion and politics, and if they ain't then they shouldn't be around in the first place. If a fella gets too worked worked up on it then give him the boot for a couple of mins to cool down, but don't sound too proper to put a gag on the fellas who want to talk about it and can deal with it like civilized folks. Strike this rule down and let abuses be handled with by the mods through the other rules. [[User:CharlesLeCheck|'''CharlesLeCheck''']] [[File:Icon_check.png|x20px|link=User talk:CharlesLeCheck]] 15:29, August 31, 2012 (UTC) |
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| − | :Absolutely not. People may take offence especially to sensitive things such as religion and/or politics. This is irrelevant to maturity. And being too emotionally involved in a discussion is '''not''' bad faith, so suggesting that he should be "give[n] the boot" is absurd at best. And I already mentioned above that with a few modifications, group conversations can be arranged so they can continue a desired topic of conversation away from the main chat. This rule is perfectly fine as it is right now. {{User:SigmaDelta54/Sig}} 15:53, August 31, 2012 (UTC) |
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| − | ==="Wiki Profiling"=== |
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| − | Recently it was suggested to this and another wiki (by a member of staff) that the members of each wiki do not visit each others chatrooms, [http://community.wikia.com/wiki/Forum:Issues_with_Halo_Nation#For_all_Fallout_members|with an administrative member of the other wiki stating their intention to turn away members of this wiki who were not previously active members]. Whilst this would seemingly prevent a wiki war and worsening relations, it can be seen as being contradiction to one of the cardinal rule of wikis - that good faith should be assumed. Do you think this policy by the other wiki should be returned? |
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| − | :No. I am reminded of the Magna Carta. "No Freeman shall be taken or imprisoned, or be disseised of his Freehold, or Liberties, or free Customs, or be outlawed, or exiled, or any other wise destroyed; nor will We not pass upon him, nor condemn him, but by lawful judgment of his Peers, or by the Law of the land. We will sell to no man, we will not deny or defer to any man either Justice or Right". No Chatter will be banned, or removed of their ability to join chat, or any other part of the wiki- but for judgement as per the rules and policies of this wiki, and when this occurs there is an unambigious ability to question, clarify and even appeal this ban. Other members of a wiki are not responsible or accountable for the actions of other members of the wikis they choose to visit. [[User:Agent c|Agent c]] ([[User talk:Agent c|talk]]) |
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| − | ::This is unacceptable. People should be accountable to their own actions only. If they personally haven't done anything improper, no sanction should befall on them, end of story. [[User:Limmiegirl|<font color= "purple"> '''Limmiegirl''' </font>]][[File:Lildeneb.png|20px]][[User talk:Limmiegirl|<font color= "purple"> <sup>''Talk! ♪''</sup> </font>]] 13:09, August 28, 2012 (UTC) |
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| − | :::I don't care if the President of fucking Wikia suggested this, it is utterly ridiculous and not even worthy of consideration. Not only does it directly contradict the fundamental rule of "assuming good faith", it essentially advocates discrimination and restricts full access to those who have interests in both ''Halo'' and ''Fallout'' or their respective chats. {{User:SigmaDelta54/Sig}} 18:09, August 28, 2012 (UTC) |
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| − | {{od|:::}} I, myself, sent out an ultimatum to everyone who read that post and to everyone who visits our chat regularly. Said ultimatum stated that if I see '''anyone''' committing an act that has to do with Sannse's comment of asking people to leave based on background that I would come down on them full force, be that person a Bureaucrat, Admin, Mod, Chat mod, or plain user. I won't tolerate this at ''all''. [[User:Tocinoman|<font color= "580000" size= "+1"> ~ '''Toci''' ~ </font>]][[User talk:Tocinoman|<font color= "333300"> <sup>''Go ahead, make my day.''</sup> </font>]] 22:59, August 28, 2012 (UTC) |
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| − | :'''EDIT''': So, as I surf throughout the page and see the "joining of other chatrooms". And...joining other chats don't immediately start a wiki war. Me and some user go to a chat where we have fun with other people, not to come to other chats like people who look like we want to make trouble upon entering. So does this develop a concept where '''no one from outside enters, and no one from inside leaves''', similarly to Vault 101's policies? [[File:applejack.png|35px|link=User:Gauzz Rifle]] |
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| − | ::This proposition is so completely and fundamentally absurd that, if it is enforced, I - and hopefully many others - will leave. It's idiotic at best and, as Sigma says, shouldn't even be considered. Hugs [[file:MadeMan2.png|20px|link=User:Scarface11235]][[User talk:Scarface11235|<font color= "Purple"> <sup>''"Say 'ello to my little friend!"''</sup> </font>]] |
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| − | ==Comments== |
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| − | (please post rules specific comments in their section. Comments may be moved to relevant sections to aid in following the discussion. Any more general information, or new rule suggestions can be included here. |
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| − | ===Saintpain=== |
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| − | Looking at the list I have been accused of many but I will try to re visit them in detail, '''now that others have opened the topic''' of course. |
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| − | # I doubt with some confidence I '''ever''' used raciest or sexist slurs. Gay is OK as is Black, white um..? Is Pony a bad word. I honestly thought Ponies like be'n called pony. If I am wrong I will offer a lengthy formal apology to the whole Pony community. |
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| − | * I went a year here with a self imposed Zero use of profanity. After that I tossed a few "F" bombs but never at any individual. I honestly never curssed any one or group here unless Obama is a member and in that case he should except it as part of his job ( Americans hate our leaders. They ask for it ~;P )Damn I just broke rule #9 provoked''!'' I am sorry I will discuss this with my therapist but honestly I meant no harm to any here. DAMN I just confessed off topic again. ( It is a sickness that harms me more than you '''''But it can be funny''''' . |
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| − | In Honor of the Myth that the world will end Dec 22 2012 I renew my vows " I shall make ''all reasonable effort'' to not swear or use dirty words again until the end of humanity's days on line. ( Please do remind me if I ever slip.) |
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| − | * Never once really made a difference as to anyone at this sites sex, real or imaged. This is a forum that lends it's self to role play and I don't trust cyber sexing so as far as I care you are fine to be what ever sex and or species you choose. I don't judge such things. It is OK to be Gay. Gay is not a bad word and I do not care where you live. |
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| − | * I rarely use none English words here ( No matter what you think of my English use :p ) I have at least only used them rarely as a reference and never enough to be banned for that "offence". |
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| − | *I have been guilty of joining conversations on slow nights relating to politics. I don't recall ever ''starting'' the discussion but it always led to more happy chat. We were just killing time until some thing more fun came along. |
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| − | * Going over the list I am innocent of ,all above, less the non issue confessions to the best of my perspective. |
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| − | * General irritation or disruption of other users ~ That is subjective. We all want to have fun on this site. Most of all on chat. " A long day at school or work should melt away in mirth & tom foolery " |
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| − | If a member dose not like another member that is their perspective, they should never be given the power to just say " Stop or I'll tell on you for ''irritating'' me. That takes away the others rights to have fun. |
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| − | * Say what you will there have been so many nights where I sat with few around to keep chat alive. Yes it can get a wee bit out of absolute control but that is what made chat fun. A taste of chaos that lightens the heart and caused no one any real harm. it was all ''just fun''. |
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| − | * Bottom line : All these rules should not divide a site, ''just nudge it in the right direction''. |
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| − | To the best of my hearts truest knowledge, I never meant any here harm. Being a free will is not defiance. It's just asking for equal rights and the benefit of a doubt. |
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| − | *What are your thoughts ? |
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| − | Final edit tonight ~ There are far to may typos for me to fix this late. |
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| − | *If you disagree with the underlying miss spelled point, I can't change your mind with this ramble. I'm just to tired. |
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| − | * Sleep well & have a better tomorrow. |
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| − | [[File:User SP Bad Medicine.jpg]] [[User:SaintPain|SaintPain]]→ '''Look for me Dec 22 Y'all know what I'm say'n.''' 07:54, August 29, 2012 (UTC) |
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| − | :This is not the place to discuss any one users ban. This is a place to discuss the rules of chat in general. Please direct any queries regarding a single persons ban to an admin. [[User:Agent c|Agent c]] ([[User talk:Agent c|talk]]) 08:41, August 29, 2012 (UTC) |
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| − | ===Enforcement=== |
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| − | Once again Yes Man you're pretty much on the money, here's the thing, these rules are pretty good rules, so my question is Why don't we just enforce them?The problem doesn't lie with the rules it lies with admin who post nude pictures of women, or just overwhelmingly gross or vulgar comments, someone needs to enforce THESE rules, not make up new ones, so I guess I would like to add A rule, Rule 11: A bureaucrat or some admin who has some sense has the authority to enforce these rules on other admins by way of A ban or other such punishment. In regards to profanity, I've seen it get out of control, but yes why would someone be in chat or play the game(or be on nukipedia) if they couldn't handle cursing, but at the same time it doesn't need to ever get to A point of no control on what you're saying at someone or something. Rule 9 is A somewhat ill-advised rule; as long as the persons involved don't get to A point of bullying the minority position! These are pretty much my thoughts, at some point the admins themselves need some policing! :) ([[User:Wildwes7g7|Wildwes7g7]] ([[User talk:Wildwes7g7|talk]]) 05:47, August 29, 2012 (UTC)) |
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| − | :Let me get something straight here: Our Administrators have never posted nudity in either our chat feature, nor our main article space. If they have, then please provide me with names and logs, and I will help take care of it. As for cursing, we do not need political correctness here. Political correctness is for people who can't handle the world around them, and I will never advocate it here. The truth of the matter is, using expletives is not a bad thing. Especially so on a mature wiki such as this one. Even using a generous amount of expletives is not a bad thing. The only time it ''is'' a bad thing, is if someone spams expletives, or uses them in a way to personally insult people. And we already do punish people who do this. I just wanted to get that straight here. [[file:ForGaroux.png|40px|link=User:GarouxBloodline]][[User talk:GarouxBloodline|<font color= "Black"> <sup>''Some Assembly Required!''</sup> </font>]] 07:35, August 29, 2012 (UTC) |
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| − | *A bureaucrat or some admin who has some sense has the authority to enforce these rules on other admins by way of A ban or other such punishment. |
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| − | :This already exists. The rules of chat apply to mods and admins just as much as they do anyone else. If you have a complaint about the behaviour of an admin, please address it to another admin, bureaucrat or moderator. Additionally the community can call for a reconfirmation request if unsatisfied with the response. |
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| − | :Additionally, I must echo Leon's point on Porn. The one time I've been aware of an image that might be termed "soft core" porn being linked, it was by a regular user who received am immediate ban. [[User:Agent c|Agent c]] ([[User talk:Agent c|talk]]) 08:15, August 29, 2012 (UTC) |
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| − | ::If you have actual proof of instances you are describing above then please post them as they will be dealt with separately and according to existing policy. As far as I see it, our current chat mods are doing a good job in enforcing to rules so I'm afraid I can't quite see where you're coming from. {{User:SigmaDelta54/Sig}} 13:55, August 29, 2012 (UTC) |
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| − | A question to the starter of this discussion: It seems like Rule 7 and Rule 9 have received the most controversy. Would there be a vote soon? If so, I would suggest we do not use the typical yes-no vote but rather the multiple selections option so that more than two possible amendments/modifications to a specific rule may be presented. {{User:SigmaDelta54/Sig}} 16:28, August 31, 2012 (UTC) |
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| − | <s>==Anti Bullying code== |
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| − | There should be an anti bullying code in chat to prevent bullying of the other users, specially when it's from admins and mods. The rule against insults is not enough because sometimes bullying happens subtly and then it's even more damagin and traumatizing because the victim is labeled as paranoid and too sensitive. Mocking people in particular should never be allowed at any circumstance. [[User:Corniolio|Corniolio]] ([[User talk:Corniolio|talk]]) 03:39, September 2, 2012 (UTC)</s> |
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| − | :Most of the rules for the chat already address this. Moot statement. [[File:UserGreatMara.png|25px|User:Great_Mara|link=User:Great_Mara]]<sup>[[User talk:Great_Mara|Message]]</sup> 03:43, September 2, 2012 (UTC) |
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| − | ::You have already started a forum up about this, and it was greatly rejected. So instead of letting you hijack this forum, I am now shutting down this thread. I am going to ask for no one to respond to this. If anyone would really like to talk about this subject, please leave your thougths on the proper forum page. |
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Revision as of 23:47, 15 February 2013
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Bug Verification Project
This article is within the scope of the Bug Verification Project. This project is dedicated to increasing the validity of game bugs. For participation, please check the project page.
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I Fought the Law is a side quest in Fallout: New Vegas.
Quick walkthrough
| Side Quest: I Fought the Law | |||||||||||||
| Talk to Eddie and ask if he has any work. | |||||||||||||
| Kill Chavez. | Convince Chavez to leave with a speech check. | ||||||||||||
| Report back to Eddie and get your assignment. | |||||||||||||
| Deal with a suspicious merchant near Jean Sky Diving. | |||||||||||||
| Betray Eddie to the NCR, attacking the prison. | Kill the suspicious merchant and return to Eddie, defending the prison. | ||||||||||||
| Reward: Various weapons, armor, ammunition and items from dead Powder Gangers and NCR troopers NCR fame, 300 XP | Reward: Various weapons, armor, ammunition and items from dead Powder Gangers and NCR troopers Powder Gangers fame, 200 XP, 100 caps, 1 Mentats, 1 Psycho, 1 Buffout | ||||||||||||
Detailed walkthrough
This quest is given by Eddie at the NCR Correctional Facility in the administration building. He's the man sitting behind the desk on the second floor, surrounded by guards. Talking to him and asking how you can help out is all that is required to start this quest.
- If you acquired a "shunned" reputation with the Powder Gangers by completing the Ghost Town Gunfight, you will still be able to talk to Eddie in order to receive this quest but assaulting anyone in the prison or gaining another level of infamy will turn the Powder Gangers hostile upon your entrance. Completing the Nipton quest, Booted or the Vault 19 quest, Why Can't We Be Friends? may provide a sufficient boost to your faction reputation, provided you're not "Vilified." If the Powder Gangers are hostile still, you can talk to Eddie by using a Stealth Boy outside the entrance and sneaking all the way to Eddie(this however might not work). Stand up and immediately talk to Eddie and the quest can be initiated. A Stealth Boy will be required each time you go back to talk to Eddie until the quest ends with the NCR confrontation. It's also possible to acquire Powder Gang simple outfit or any other Powder Gangers outfits (also including Powder Gang guard armor) to disguise yourself and infiltrate the camp, then take out everybody besides Eddie in the Administration Building with a silenced weapon. Once only Eddie is left, it's advised you save and walk up and talk to him before he sees through your disguise. Once done talking get out of there as fast as possible again.
The first task you'll be given is to "take care" of a Powder Ganger named Chavez, who Eddie believes is setting up his own crew without permission. He is located at Powder Ganger camp south, which is just south of the prison. You can either convince him to "move on" with 30 Speech skill (35 XP) or kill him (20 XP, 80 XP total if his guards are killed). Talking to him without being able to pass the speech skill will result in combat. Killing him (and/or the other Powder Gangers with him) won't cause any reputation loss with the Powder Gangers, and interestingly, his "crew" may not turn hostile if you kill Chavez in front of them. Whichever way you decide to do it, return to Eddie and let him know Chavez is handled.
The second task is to "deal with" a suspicious traveling merchant over at Jean Sky Diving. If you talk to him, you can find out that he's actually a bounty hunter with 6 Intelligence or 30 Speech (only the speech option provides 30 XP). You can then end the conversation and report back to Eddie, or try to shake him down for a "toll" (30 Speech required, 30 XP). The bounty hunter may attack you even after you convince him to leave, even if you are not dressed as a Powder Ganger. You can also "deal" with him at any point by killing him for no Karma loss and 20 XP, though he carries a stimpak and will use it if attacked. Report back to Eddie.
Finally, you'll be asked to find out about the NCR's plans for the prison. Head to Primm and seek out either Johnson Nash or Lt. Hayes. Nash will cough up the information for 100 caps (50 caps if you have 30 Barter or for free if you have 30 Speech, whichever is chosen results in 30 XP). Hayes will only tell you that military orders are classified, unless you already know - either by pickpocketing the "Military orders" off him, and/or by getting the information from Nash first. Once you have the information, you can either report back to Eddie, or betray him to Lt. Hayes, and help the NCR take back the prison.
If you report back to Eddie, he'll reward you with 1 Buffout, 1 Psycho, 1 Mentats, 100 caps, 200 XP and some Powder Gangers fame. He'll say that the NCR is already here, and tell you to feel free to kill some of them on the way out. As soon as you exit the building, the assault will begin, and NCR troopers pour into the facility and attack. You won't lose reputation with the NCR for informing on them; however, all the soldiers assaulting the base will be hostile to you, which will likely cause NCR reputation loss as a result of shooting back (only if you kill any of the soldiers). Alternately, if you change into NCR armor before exiting the building, the NCR invaders will be neutral, but some Powder Gangers will be hostile.
If Powder Gangers defeat the attackers you can speak with Eddie who will thank you. You will gain reputation.
If you instead choose to betray Eddie to the NCR, you can choose the dialog path with Lt. Hayes where you ask to help in the assault. He'll tell you to rendezvous with Sergeant Lee, located just to the south east of the prison (on a hill, approximately in line between Powder Ganger camp south and the prison). Once you initiate dialog with him, he'll give you a short "briefing," and the assault will begin. The quest will end once Eddie is dead, but as the Powder Gangers will rush out into the courtyard for the battle, Eddie will most likely be one of the last Powder Gangers alive anyway. You'll be awarded 300 XP for completing the quest, and gain reputation with the NCR. The NCR reputation is gained by speaking with Lee after Eddie dies. If Lee dies during the assault, you won't gain NCR reputation.
Lee may mumble something about reporting back to Lt. Hayes after the quest has finished but, if My Kind of Town has already been completed, he will be gone from the NCR camp at Primm. You may run into him later at Camp Forlorn Hope. It is possible that Hayes and some of the troops under his command were sent to the Hope, and is why some troops at Forlorn Hope say that they got reinforced by troops from Primm.
Journal entries
Notes
- It is possible to kill all the Powder Gangers before the assault on the prison (including Eddie) and complete the quest (by implementing Sneak kills with a silenced weapon to avoid Powder Gangers infamy, then kill Eddie when you're told to report to Sergeant Lee - reporting back to Sergeant Lee after killing Eddie will generate an automatic mission success).
- Killing Eddie prior to that point will create a mission failure.
- By doing this it is also possible to gain the rewards for helping Eddie (300 XP instead of the normal 200), only become shunned (camps won't attack the player) by the Powder Gangers (See Notes) and gain the reputation increase with the NCR. Speak to Eddie prior to killing him and let him know about the attack, kill him and equip NCR faction armor (armor optional), then run outside and through the visitor's center to speak with Lee as he is running (from the left) inside. Keep running after speaking to him and over the ridge if you lack NCR faction armor. He'll reward only NCR reputation and not Powder Ganger infamy, as the latter would normally occur at this point but doesn't due to turning the quest in first to Eddie. Similarly, the player gains the 300 XP for the NCR completion even though the quest is finished by Eddie.
- However, if the player uses the above method, all the NCR troopers inside the administration center will be hostile to the player from that point on (even days or weeks later) if the player ever enters the area without an NCR faction disguise equipped.
- It is recommended that this mission be completed before you complete Ghost Town Gunfight unless you decide to support Joe Cobb/Powder Gangers or follow one of the alternative methods detailed in that page's notes.
- Powder gangers in the scattered camps are hostile to the player until Neutral or Shunned reputation is established, avoid killing them loudly to be able to speak to Eddie initially.
- If you have a hostile reputation with the Powder Gangers (hated, vilified), you will be attacked on sight by Eddie's bodyguards and named non-player characters (Hannigan, Dawes, etc.), even if disguised as a Powder Ganger. Being unable to talk to Eddie will make it impossible to obtain and/or complete this quest without the use of a Stealth Boy.
- Correction: it is possible to talk to Eddie without a Stealth Boy, even if you are vilified by the Powder Gangers. The easiest way to do this is to kill Powder Gangers who can see through your disguise (Dawes, Carter, Hannigan, bodyguards, etc), and stealth kill all other Powder Gangers (you can leave Meyers alone). You will probably have to remove and put your Powder Gangers faction armor back on to reset your rep back to neutral, and also wait around until they no longer sense you, so they no longer appear as hostile. Using this technique, you can get rid of every Powder Ganger at the NCR Correctional Facility except for Eddie and Meyers. Then, every time you want to talk to Eddie, run in and talk to him before he has a chance to get up. When dialogue ends, run out of the room so he can't see you and turn hostile.
- Killing all of Eddie's guards stealthily may allow you to get to Eddie and initiate dialog without hostilities, as a workaround for the above issue. If he becomes hostile when you approach him after his guards are dead, try running quickly at him and repeatedly trying to talk. If you get to him before he stands up, he will talk to you.
- If you want to help the Powder Gangers or sit back and let the NCR and Gangers fight it out (without betraying them), it is recommended that you visit the Cell Blocks and the Visitor Center, so that more Gangers will join the fight. This will lead to a slightly more even fight.
- If you want to be certain to complete the quest, (and not intervene), you will have to visit each cell block, otherwise the NCR will just kill the Powder Gangers in the yard, then the Admin building. After Eddie is killed the NCR troops will go into idle mode and walk around the building leaving the Powder Gangers alive in other buildings. One named Powder Ganger may remain in one of the cell blocks, (a sneak kill if you want to keep your rep intact).
- You can "arm" Powder Gangers before the fight if you want them to win. Just reverse pickpocket your weapons and armor in to their inventory before the battle (before you tell Eddie about the attack). Don't forget to supply them with ammunition for new weapons. Arming them with armor piercing ammunition is especially effective since that will negate NCR troops armor advantage. Single bullet is enough, non-player characters get unlimited supply automatically. Steal their regular ammunition to ensure they use AP one. In order for them to equip new items, enter any building and save/reload or go to different game-cell and come back.
- So long as you don't complete the last section of this quest the NCR Correctional Facility admin building's refrigerator will re-spawn 3 to 6 random food items at least once every game week. Stealing these items will still result in a small loss of Karma, and if caught, the Powder Gangers will attack.
- If you have low Intelligence when reporting to Eddie after dealing with the bounty hunter, you will say "I got rid of the bunny hunter."
- Although the player can pickpocket the attack orders from Lt. Hayes before the quest, the player will still be unable to initiate the attack on the Powder Gangers or speak to Lt. Hayes about the attack at all until the player is given the choice during the quest (this also mean the player cannot complete this quest if they are hated by the Powder Gangers).
Behind the scenes
- This quest is a reference to the song of the same name by Sonny Curtis & the Crickets, more famously covered by the Bobby Fuller Four in 1965 and The Clash in 1979.
 | The following is based on Fallout: New Vegas cut content. |
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- A number of cut and partially completed dialogue options exist which point towards the final portion of the quest having had additional options for helping out. In particular, a number of incomplete topics would have allowed the Courier to offer suggestions as to how Eddie could better defend the facility, including posting more guards and placing snipers on the guard towers.
- The Courier was also being given the option to free Chavez from the prison.[1]
| End of information based on Fallout: New Vegas cut content |
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Bugs
Completion of this quest in favor of the NCR will not register the proper result. Even though you gain the fame for success, Mr. New Vegas will report the mission as a failure, as will the ending narration. [verified]- Sgt. Lee may freeze on the steps to the admin building and will not finish dialogue - thus preventing NCR fame. Shooting weapon out of his hand which will turn Lee hostile but then holstering weapon immediately which will return Lee to turn friendly will unfreeze him. [verified]
- If the player passes the Intelligence or Speech check to make the bounty hunter admit he's there to collect Powder Ganger bounties, the question "So what are you still doing here?" will still be available. If selected, he will answer, "Uh, you know, just filling up water and stuff." This response is in support of his cover story rather than the truth he has just admitted. [verified]
- The explosions that opened the entrances for the NCR troops will not detonate mines or c4, giving an easy way to finish this quest however you will gain infamy from the NCR. [verification overdue]
