Fallout 4 characters

opening

her legs are clearly black in that birth sequence, not white.

Race of Mom

Seeing the bull**** argument below, I think this should be pointed out: Why does it matter? In the end anyway, your character is whatever race you're going to make it after all, and Dad is going to adjust to be the same race as you, so it won't be like "HOW IN THE HELL DID THAT HAPPEN" when your mom is black, your dad is white and you're Asian. Besides, mixed couples isn't really all that uncommon in Fallout 3, example: Cindy Cantelli and her husband, Paulie Cantelli are a mixed couple. The game is just being as realistic as it possibly can when it comes to human interpersonal relations. One more thing, why are people still dubious of the canonicity of her racial appearance if they have (cut but still valid) a photo of Mom and Dad, and her game model is African American by default? I mean, get over it. She was black. That's all. Just putting my two cents. Breetastic 01:40, September 5, 2009 (UTC)

I will again state what you have looked over. 1: The scene has heavy Imagespace modification. Making her black could just as likely be to get better contrast. 2: That picture frame mesh is NOT in the game, it is cut content and therefore not canon. 3: The fact that the Player Character can be a wide variety of races means that Catherine could not possibly be any one fixed race. It's simple genetics. Ethnic traits don't disappear instantly with just one generation of interbreeding with another ethnicity. --MadCat221 03:21, September 7, 2009 (UTC)

Spawn Catherine NPC?

Since she's rendered in the cutscene, has anybody found an ID to spawn Catherine?

The base id is 0005eddf

Catherine's origins

Can someone explain this further? We know that James was originally a wastelander and scientist with Project Purity, but was Catherine also from the wasteland? Or was she a Vault scientist that met James during one of the "expeditions" the Overseer mentions in his logs?

Odd...

I could have sworn when I was a baby the legs I saw from first person mode were white... Perhaps it has something to do with race, but I doubt it, as even James wont change until later in the game. Also, I find it curious that she in rendered so well despite the fact you aren't supposed to see her. She isn't some low quality "throwaway" model. She's as good quality-wise as any other model, and despite a clipping issue with her arm I see nothing wrong with the way she is posed on the table. Can anyone confirm if her spoken lines are lip-synched or anything, because if they are I would wonder if you were meant to see her at some point.

I've found the reason is due to lighting, possibly, as her race is as ambiguous as your character. There may also be some kind of trigger that changes it before hand, but I didn't notice anything going off. I don't think it matters much either way. 74.5.111.155 08:57, 26 May 2009 (UTC)

Her race is definitely not ambiguous. She is listed as african-american in the geck. I stumbled upon her by accident browsing through it.--99.184.21.230 13:45, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

I disagree, the fact you aren't supposed to see her at any point shows shes supposed to be ambiguous. Being so, they probably just slapped her with any model, as it didnt matter anyway. You aren't supposed to see her. The fact you have to go against the boundaries of the game, into the GECK or free motion camera via console, confirm this. Simply do not take it as canon. Seriously, what did you expect? them to make her a blurry half-assed model when they have readily available models on hand to simply slap in and forget? Come on people.. ~InternetDouche

Several notes (some from the other debate on this talk page:

• 1: NPCs (as opposed to the other actor classes, Creatures or Talking Activators) all have a standardized body and face model, so that's what appears.
• 2: The scene has heavy imagespace modification, and having dark skin like that would make color contrast better (color contrast is how the human eye discerns things).
• 3: The only way to see anything beyond the leg is via means not meant to be used during normal gameplay. No other content seen in-game shows Catherine.

The matter will hopefully be addressed by an official statement from GStaff soon... --MadCat221 05:50, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

Catherine African-American?

While browsing trough the NIF files, I stumbled upon a picture (e.g. actual picture in-game, one that is framed, you know what I mean), named vmomdadpic01.nif. In it, I actually saw a picture of James aside an African-American woman, the same one even that you could "see" in the cut-scene.

I actually went and searched for that same model in the GECK, and it was also there (just search VMomDadPic01), but, as you can see, it's not in use. As it was cut content the canonity of this is debatable, but it does add the possibility. GaryCXJk 12:21, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

I'd call it non-canon too, because genetics would make it impossible to have a pasty-white player character if one of the parents is african-american. --MadCat221 03:43, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

Actually, it's possible among mixed couples, even if rather rare. Ausir 03:44, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

But how mixed is the african partner in the couple? African americans that are truly of total african heritage are rare. And it's not just skin tone either, there's a distinct facial structure as well. How could an african-american mother have a child that's a porcelain-white-skinned redhead? --MadCat221 03:55, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

As I said, it does happen. Ever heard of dominant/recessive genes? Such combination of genes that would cause a black woman to have a white baby is very rare, but it's not impossible (either most of his genes would need to be dominant, her egg would need to have mostly "white" alleles that were recessive in herself and were thus not demonstrated in the phenotype, or a combination of the two). It's really not unheard of.

In my last two runs of the game, I've had an African-American chosen character - the first run has James with a bit lighter skin than my character. The second run, I chose another AA race - but did the tuners so he was porcelain-stark white. This caused James to actually have near-black skin, to where I could barely see details on his face. African Albinos exist, so why not in Fallout?

Sure, her appearance is of dubious canonicity because she's not normally seen in-game, but it has nothing to do with genetics. Ausir 04:01, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

It's not dubious, because she appears on photos scattered throughout the fucking Jefferson Memorial. _Tagaziel ^(call!) 07:25, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

First, your foul mouth is not appreciated. And at the wiki head admin too. Second, no it is not all over the Jefferson Memorial. I have checked, and the picture has zero world references. Do you have definitive GECK-based proof that they appear? The answer is no. --MadCat221 04:36, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

To drive the point home, here is an image proving that it doesn't appear in-game and is an abandoned-in-place asset. Note that "count" and "users" are both 0, meaning it is not used anywhere or by anything. --MadCat221 05:02, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

...And to settle the matter, I've PM'd GStaff on the BethSoft forums, for a "Fawkes Is Male" type definition on Catherine's race once and for all. --MadCat221 05:28, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

First, you talking back to an admin who knows Ausir is not appreciated. I have a really short temper when it comes to people exhibiting Wookiepedia levels of intellectual ineptitude - if (even an unused) image is present in the game files and the GECK appearance corresponds with it, that's how Catherine looks. End of story. _Tagaziel ^(call!) 09:44, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

Veiled threats against one with an opposing view of abusing powers afforded by high position and with association with the top brass... insults... and incorrect knowledge of how this wiki works (check next section below). Keep it coming. --MadCat221 22:43, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

One gets angry when one realizes the invalidity of their own argument. Such is the case now. Apparently non-canonical cut-content equals to de facto truth. Such a closed minded view, then he turns around and calls the kettle black. Astounding. Well despite what you may erroneously believe, cut content is not often considered canon, and from the look of the wiki, not here either. It was not taken out due to time constraints nor bugs, if it were, that is something that could've EASILY be amended with a patch update, and yet it is not so, Why was it taken out if not for these causes? I submit to you that it is because they wanted her ambiguous, something so small as a picture cut from the game? they didn't want the player seeing it, and that's because they wanted her race and appearance to be unknown and thus ambiguous, perhaps at some point she had a pre-defined look, but it seems that either way, ultimately she was left to be indistinct purposely. Quite a few users also have pointed out the use of making her dark skinned to contrast with the environment and actually /aid/ her ambiguity, a technique that is actually often used, and thus is a valid argument. You've yet to provide a rebuttal to that, you've yet to do anything but threaten and insult. The basis behind your side has been pointing out a completely different game's psuedo-similar situation, and unsubstantiated claim that since its in the files, it 'must' be canon, disproven easily by the fact that by that same logic, everything cut must therefore be canon; conflicts with the plot, or flow of the game notwithstanding. You're engaging in rabid intellectual dishonesty, absolutely refusing to take in any counter arguments, instead declaring something akin to "Im right, period". That is called a logical fallacy, but i wouldnt assume you know that. 72.167.36.70 05:23, 11 July 2009 (UTC)E-Nomad

Because I am right. You have no right whatsoever to claim that you know what the intent of the developers was, especially not when it comes to Bethesda. They are well known for omissions, errors, scripting bugs and not restoring something unfinished, even if all it takes is changing a variable in the GECK. Given their track record, it is far more likely that they've simply forgot to place the picture in. Not the first time they forgot about something. _Tagaziel ^(call!) 16:34, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

I'm just a noob here, but this "Tagaziel" seems like a real dickcheese. If this is the type of guy who is chosen for admin around here (the type who assumes his opinion is always correct, even when it contradicts the estabished rules of the wiki, and then berates and insults those who do not agree with him), people aren't going to want to contribute to your wiki. CapAp 00:13, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

Dudes, give it a rest. It's over with. --MadCat221 02:16, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

Okay guys, the actual reason I put up this topic was more as a suggestion to add the cut prop, or at least an image of the cut prop, to the page. I mean, there is already cut content on this site, content which could not be considered canon. The reason the picture should be there is to give a fair representation of everything we can find about this character. it's already not a lot, but at least we've got this prop picture. It fits nicely with the beta gauss rifle and the stinky cheese or whatever was cut from the game.--GaryCXJk 23:03, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

I mean, it's pretty much like that Calvert dude having a picture of his invisible human self.--GaryCXJk 23:08, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

Something wrong with being black?--Kirby888 05:25, November 7, 2009 (UTC)

Like to point out something but Perhaps the picture of the african cathrine was perhaps just a concept artist messing arround so as a joke the animators made catherine black in the game as a sort of inside joke but she being black isint that inportent considering the fact your not ment to know what she looks like anyway.

-would someone just delete this all. "WD"

Taking a look

IMO these information belong to the discussion page, not to the article, or should at least be phrased less like facts, as the conclusions are incomplete and biased. Her "appearance" simply is the closest stock character to what is needed for that scene, mainly having dark skin (to only show her outline against the bright background light) and using a full model (to avoid having to make a custom model/class). Golan2781 14:53, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

Wrong direction

Mom in The Den links to this page, and there is no trace of the Mom from fallout 2, should there be an article about that mom?

Picture Removal

"In normal gameplay, she is not seen so as to better lend credibility to the wide variety of skin tones and facial options available to the player. "

For this reason, I think all pictures of Catherine should be removed. Or at least not featured as an official image of her. --MadCat221 02:33, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

Thats crazy, you dont even see her, but think she should be removed, but the the Dad is white, and he definitely belongs in the game.--99.184.21.230 13:48, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

Of course, just because she is black, you want to throw the race card down. I believe the purpose of this wiki is to accurately convey information to any and all Fallout players. As such, any normally inaccessible content should not be considered canon, and thus should not be used in the character's official profile. However, her images can be moved to the bottom, as all her other images are.

Oh Christ, are you one of those tools that think that because much of KOTOR2's content is inaccessible due to time constraints or bugs, it's not canon? _Tagaziel ^(call!) 09:47, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

First you have a foul mouth, now you're using derogatory names for those who disagree with you. Admin or no, your total lack of respect for those who disagree with you is astounding, ESPECIALLY considering you're an admin. And if it isn't in the final released official product, then it isn't canon. Heck, there's even a label for such things like Unique weapons never used. Here is a quote for you: "Canonicity notice: Fallout 3 cut content-- The following is based on content which was cut from the final version of Fallout 3. It is not considered to be canon but may serve as "flavor material". What the GECK sees is not the official canon, what is seen in the game is. --MadCat221 22:31, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

I don't see any harm in using the picture in the infobox, but with the infobox description stating that she is not actually normally seen in-game. Similarly, we use concept art in infoboxes of some characters in Fallout that don't have in-game talking heads, like Razor. And yes, Mikael, try to be more civil next time. Ausir^(talk) 23:14, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

I shall abide. Since I haven't got an answer back from GStaff yet (he did reply that he's asking though), I think the proper term would be "dubious canonicity" which you coined. --MadCat221 23:17, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

If you think Tagaziel's mouth is foul, then why are you playing Fallout? Have you heard Boxcars speak yet? Here's a quote: "Jesus fucking Christ, if you want me dead, just gimme 15 Med-X and I'll fucking O.D. for ya, okay? Fuck!"--74.215.62.191 08:46, August 24, 2012 (UTC)

Word from GStaff on Catherine's race

Here is a verbatim copy-paste of my PM exchange with Matt Grandstaff (handle "GStaff") on the official BSF concerning Catherine...

ME: There seems to be a point of contention on Fallout Wiki wiki over the race of Catherine AKA Mom in FO3. Her race is defined as African American, but it is believed that it is so to get an improved color contrast in a scene with very heavy imagespace modification.

So time for another "Fawkes Is Male" type declaration... Is Catherine's race African-American, or is it intended to be nebulous?

GSTAFF: I can ask...but does it really matter?

ME: I's mainly to cease the constant back-and-forth editing of that article. There seems to be a propensity to consider behind-the-scenes workings accidentally discovered as official on that wiki (like "The Brain" in Point Lookout).

GSTAFF: I did some checking...sorry, there's not a defined race for that character.

--MadCat221 22:02, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

"There seems to be a propensity to consider behind-the-scenes workings accidentally discovered as official on that wiki (like "The Brain" in Point Lookout)." What is that supposed to mean? There is one picture of Calvert's actor NPC during Thought Control in the article which is labeled as "not meant to be seen during normal gameplay". -- Porter21 ^(talk) 22:27, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

I added that "not meant to be seen" line to Calvert's page. --MadCat221 23:47, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

I still don't see how that supports your sweeping generalizing statement regarding the wiki as a whole. Maybe you can point me to the revision where it stated there was anything canon about the actor NPC? -- Porter21 ^(talk) 05:40, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

And the fact that her race is not canon doesn't mean the image can't be used in the infobox, just like we use concept art in the infoboxes for some FO1 and 2 characters that don't have official in-game face images. Ausir^(talk) 22:29, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

Also, you didn't exactly mention all the evidence to Gstaff (the photo, in particular, even if cut from the final game). Ausir^(talk) 22:34, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

Race

She was not ment to be seen, she is Everyrace!

The only reason why she is black is so she hides better in teh shadows...

They dont let you see her so you can be asian or Mexican.

So who really cares?

---

I know why none of you can't accept that she is black...you are all a bunch of racists!. The rule of canon says that each individual decides what is canon and what is not when something is left undisclosed... After analysing the existing evidence of her race I concluded that she WAS meant to be black at some point and in my canon she is black!. Is very fascinating that members of the fallout community are assholes that insult new people and ban people just because they have different opinions eh.. No mutant allowed... cough duck and cover...and apparently here. that's why I'm a fan but isolated from the community... go to hell, fuck you and have a good day.

(New person) But aren't you pushing to MAKE us say it's cannon when you JUST said it's OUR choice? And isn't it slightly rascist you think she can't be white, Asian, or Mexican? You are saying She HAS to be this race, forget about the other races.--74.215.62.191 08:53, August 24, 2012 (UTC)

Spawning

Well, here's a distraction from the race debate! If spawned, she will be standing while in the console, but upon hitting the tilde key, she will float in air in a birthing position. If you, however, set her essential and "kill" her, she will get back up standing. Just some info for people who like to spawn NPCs in weird places. (As a side note, the James I ad already spawned went running off when I spawned Catherine. My dad is now somewhere in the wastes). --Valoopy 07:22, May 8, 2011 (UTC)

Vault 21

Can someone remove this assumption? Since Gstaff confirmed Catherine's "no-race-defined" status, mentioning them possible having been in Vault 21 based on the picture alone would contradict her "no-race" status, it would suggest her appearence has been canonized at some point, which I to this day still have to see proven. --Radnus 15:51, May 26, 2011 (UTC)

Fallout New Vegas Character?

It says she is classified as both a fallout 3 character and a fallout nv character on the page. is this a mistake or can someone tell me when she is mentioned in fallout nv.

100% black to me

Yes, she is not defined as a black in the story maybe,but she is definitely black (or deep brown if someone hate this word so much) in the photo and her lags (which you can see in the game) is black enough for me too.If you encountered and killed a raider in the wasteland who is not even mentioned (Thus the race is not officially defined,like Mom) in the story,but the raider is spawned with the model of black race,would you refuse to admit the raider is a black?Just because he is not defined a black in the official story?Its kinda funny if you cant accept the fact she is a black only because her race is not mentioned in the story,despise the fact she is a 100% black from the photo(cut the bull about contrast please,since Dad is in the photo too and he is like 20X whiter than Mom). I know a mixed couple who have two kids, one is totally black and another is totally white, so its possible that you look like an asian if your mother is a black and your father is an asian.Being the child of a black women is not that bad ...especially when you only do that in a game. Huttu (talk) 22:06, October 24, 2012 (UTC)

Hi, to avoid debate we typically go by what the game files say, or by Dev comment. If the GECK says X, then X must be true unless contradicted by a Dev - which we do have a statement from via gstaff. This avoids any subjective arguments. Agent c (talk) 22:12, October 24, 2012 (UTC)

You mean Devs have to state every single obvious or you wouldnt take it?So a dead black raider who is not mentioned by any Dev or GECK is not a black?So Mom, despise looks perfectly like a black in the photo or from the legs in the game,is not a black?So a rock,which looks like perfectly like a rock on the ground is not a rock because GECK doesnt say it is? Lets face the fact, if Mom looks like a white in the photo then nobody would question her race, and there wouldnt be a "debate" at all.Her race wouldnt even be mentioned in the talk page.Huttu (talk) 22:26, October 24, 2012 (UTC)

Unfortunately speculation ("spec-" meaning to watch) is not allowed at this wiki simply because there would be no solid constraints to what is valid speculation or what is invalid. People see (or watch) differently. Therefore we must have confirmation for everything and for our wiki the only way to get that is to go with devs' info, through the GECK. --Skire (talk) 22:37, October 24, 2012 (UTC)

I'm disapointed you chose to allude to a claim of racism there. To answer your question though, yes, if that rock said it was something else in the GECK, then yes, the GECK would overrule eyes. What is "Obvious" for one person, isnt so obvious to another. To further settle this, I refer you to Moira Brown as just the first white character that I could think of. Note the Race, my understanding this is from the GECK. White, with Caucasion listed in the box. Please feel free to correct if the GECK says something different. Agent c (talk) 22:44, October 24, 2012 (UTC)

I'm disappointed you refuse to admit its actually about racism, even you know what I said about no one would even mention her race if she looks white is true, what I've chosen is only admitting this. Although i am not going to continue about this topic.I see this this way, in a concept which is a little bit complex, if you see the game world as a true world (which I do or discuss anything about the lore is meaningless), the character who called Catherine must belong to a race, a race which is not defined in the story (yes i do know this so you can stop repeating). But, I have to emphasize this again, something is not defined in the story doesnt mean its not defined in the game world, on the contrary, EVERYTHING is defined already in the game world if you see it as a true world.For example, the race of Dad, its not defined in the story but its defined in the game world, although its defined differently for everyone, and as I said, a rock on the ground, GECK doesnt mention the rock at all, but its a rock in your game world(unless GECK says its not).Ok now back to the character called Catherine, we know some simple fact about this person:1.Her race is not defined in the story. 2.She looks perfectly like a black in photos. 3.Her legs look perfectly like legs of a black person, and now remember, she definitely belongs to a race since she is a human,and every human belongs to a race.So what the race she belongs to?Everything is defined in the game world already if you see it as a true world.So Catherine is a black in everyone's game world, although its not defined in story, thats how I see it.By the way, I know everyone sees things differently, so if you think Catherine looks like a white or a asian for some reason, feel free to think she is not a black, but its not about the GECK, its about how you think.Huttu (talk) 23:24, October 24, 2012 (UTC)

"I'm disappointed you refuse to admit its actually about racism, even you know what I said about no one would even mention her race if she looks white is true" - I believe I have already pointed out just how this is false by just picking one page at complete random. However if you find a white toned character who is listed as "Caucasion" on the wiki, but is not listed this way by either the GECK or a developer comment, not only are you welcome to change it, I encourage you to do so. That you assume that the issue here is racism I think speaks more for your own personal biases - you have absolutely no reason at all to believe anyone who has responded to you so far is a white Caucasian - and in fact I can assure you at least one of us is not so, I'll leave you to guess which one. You are correct that everything is defined in the game world - Those definitions are present in the GECK. Agent c (talk) 23:36, October 24, 2012 (UTC)

Catherine is indeed black. This goes hand in hand with James being a mix between Caucasian and Hispanic. This is so there is a reasonable explanation for why you are born whichever race you choose. This is also supported by the photograph of James and Catherine, which clearly shows Catherine as black. (Why they took it out of F3 and added it to NV is beyond me, even if it wasn't intentional like they said.) ^{Some Assembly Required!} 23:30, October 24, 2012 (UTC)

The only thing that suggests that she might not be black is the fact that her voice actor is white. But I hardly call that evidence to the contrary that she's black. ^{Some Assembly Required!} 23:35, October 24, 2012 (UTC)

Nitpicking time, why is this section at the top of the page instead of at the bottom so things are in chronological order? ^Message 23:39, October 24, 2012 (UTC)

I dont see how you proved me wrong since Moira's race is written in her page, unlike Catherine, you should find a page of someone who looks perfectly like white and is not labeled as white and with some people keep trying to tell everyone he or she is actually not white in the talk page. And no, if you agree with me everything is defined already in the game world if you see it as a true world then GECK definitely doesnt define everything for the world.Let me ask you a question, how many mole rats are there in the world the second lone wonderer left 101 and started his journey?GECK doenst define it, and we dont know the answer either, but there is an answer if you see the game world as a true world, thats what I mean. Huttu (talk) 23:57, October 24, 2012 (UTC)

Moira isn't listed as white. Look again. She is listed as "Caucasion" as she is listed in the GECK. Feel free to check it, and correct it if this is not the case. The game exists through the GECK, and the GECK defines the game. The GECK doesnt define how many mole rats are left in the game world, that much is true, however that argument fails because this wiki makes no claim as to how many are left. There is therefore, for the purposes of the wiki, no answer as each persons game is different. Agent c (talk) 00:03, October 25, 2012 (UTC)

It doesnt matter what race she is labeled, since she is still labeled, unlike Catherine, so even if she is labeled asian it still doesnt fit into a example to prove me wrong.I dont know why you want to pick the The "Caucasian is not equal to white" thing, just like saying african's not equal to black, no they are not equal, but why are we discussing this?And by the way, I dont want to list her as a "black" since obviously there is no such option. What I am saying is she is 100% black to me, and if you see the world as a true world then she is a black in the world, unless you dont think she looks like one for some reason ofcourse.The wierd thing is, there are some people keep trying to tell everyone she is not a black because GECK doesnt say so (we all know that since you can't choose to be a "black"), so you cant say it even in the talk page, while in the same time must of the "Behind the scenes" or some information are true but not mentioned in the GECK and those people think its ok to list it.Huttu (talk) 00:28, October 25, 2012 (UTC)

Well, I accept and appreciate that she is black to you, but we try to be an encyclopaedia here and need to keep to as high a standard as possible. This means, when there is evidence from inside the game, or by the people who made the game, rejecting the "evidence of our own eyes" and going by the Geck. This means we use the labels used in game - not White, Black, etc; and only apply the labels that the game itself (or its makers) use. Ultimately, they the developers are best judge of what the "truth" is, because they wrote it. Agent c (talk) 00:39, October 25, 2012 (UTC)

Then I think you got alot of work to do to alot of pages if your standard is "you shouldnt say she is a black even in talk page because GECK didnt say so" while we all know there is actually no "black" race in GECK.I am sure you wont only focus on correcting these "errors" on this page.Maybe you can start from adding a refrence to devs' quote for every "behind the sense", if we cant find a refrence then we maybe better remove it. Huttu (talk) 00:54, October 25, 2012 (UTC)

Please feel free to point out and/or correct any page that has its race not based on the GECK or developer comment. As we have a lot of GECK wizzards here, I think you'll find most, if not all, have already been checked. Agent c (talk) 00:56, October 25, 2012 (UTC)

Since when the only thing needs to be listed strictly according to GECK is race? I just understand everything including those in talk page should be talked strictly according to GECK, and should not be talked if GECK doesnt mention it.I am not too eager to enforce this principle actually, some people in this page will do it gladly, strangely they seem only do it in this page. Huttu (talk) 01:09, October 25, 2012 (UTC) You seem to be basing that off a pair of faulty premises. That this is the only thing we use the GECK for, and that this is the only page where this is an issue. In fact, there was a similar issue on another page yesterday where the GECK won out over looks. Agent c (talk) 01:16, October 25, 2012 (UTC)

There is no way for GECK to "won out" in this page since GECK doesn't say she is not a black, and once again she is not defined in the story doesn't mean she is not a black in our game world. It's not the first time you talking like GECK says that.I just noticed someone said maybe devs just made a black woman model for Catherine for an inside joke and forgot to change it.So I guess the thing which shouldn't be mentioned does exist in this page and its proven. 123.195.55.63 04:53, October 25, 2012 (UTC)

"GECK doenst define it, and we dont know the answer either, but there is an answer if you see the game world as a true world, thats what I mean." Huttu, your argument has one glaring flaw: The game world is NOT the true world, and really shouldn't be seen as such. It is a computer simulation of a VERY truncated "parallel world where the future imagined in the 1950's became reality" and is not in any way supposed to be taken as a 'true world'. A computer simulation is based on data defined by the application that runs it. The GECK is how we gather this information from said application. "Seeing" the game world as the true world is entirely your own viewpoint and really doesn't have any place in a wiki of facts based on actual evidence (not 'perceived' evidence).--Imperium999 (talk) 20:06, October 29, 2012 (UTC)