Forum:Possible secret Brotherhood ending

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Forums: Index > Fallout: New Vegas general discussion > Possible secret Brotherhood ending

Me and my friend figured there could possibly be a secret "Brotherhood Wins" ending. Kill basically everyone but the Brotherhood. There has to be a way to kill Yes Man for this to work though. The Brotherhood wouldn't care who you killed. So they being the only ones left alive they would be victorious.

Any thoughts?

Yes Man is immortal. Also, the Brotherhood is a huge pack of failures. So, no, they cannot "be victorious." Schneidend 07:43, November 12, 2010 (UTC)

Dude how's the BOS a bunch of failures. If I was unrestrained by the games storyline rules, i'd have them establish full control over the mojave and the strip 00:07, November 13, 2010 (UTC) Sec 19

They couldn't even hold a single power plant against a bunch of under trained and equipped NCR troops. Failures is the perfect word. Or "thugs". Also, checking the GECK confirms the only possible ending are listed under Fallout: New Vegas endings. The best the brotherhood can hope to do is get back the building they lost. --DragonJTSLeave me a message 00:32, November 13, 2010 (UTC)

Though I think the "huge pack of failures" is putting it harshly, I do agree that the brotherhood is there in the game as an example of what happens when you are too narrow and protectionist in your ideology. Read enough on them and you know one of their problems is recruiting outsiders, partly due to their own mistrust of others. So really the reason they can't win is themselves and their own narrow view. Nanokiss 01:16, November 13, 2010 (UTC)

I agree, it seems their shortfall is always their isolationist standpoint. I see their existence in the big picture as a symbol of the death of the old world they cling to so desperately. Adapt or die! Sigpic small.jpg 07:15, November 13, 2010 (UTC)

In Fallout Tactics (which most of you would probably dismissed it as a Fallout series), BOS is quite strong (well they are the main storyline), and they are not so "Isolated" seeing how they Have Tribals, Ghouls, Mutants, Robots and Even Deathclaws as their Members. The main things I like about Fallout is BOS, afterall they have a huge role on Defeating Super Mutant "Master" in Mariposa base, too bad that they don't have any special place in FNV. Sometimes, adapting is not the only way to survive, IF we can't adapt to the World, then the we have to make the World Adapt to us, we will not die just because we Can't adapt to the world :D. After all, that's what we Human has been doing throughout history (ex, we cut forest because they are "unsuitable" for living, we make bridge because walking on water is just not possible), RIGHT?DualRifle 03:53, November 15, 2010 (UTC)

That ain't canon DualRifle, plus, that is the Midwestern BoS anyway. --Johnny Trash (Talk) 06:04, November 15, 2010 (UTC)
"we will not die just because we Can't adapt to the world :D." <- Actually, yes, that dying is natural selection in a nutshell.
"After all, that's what we Human has been doing throughout history (ex, we cut forest because they are "unsuitable" for living, we make bridge because walking on water is just not possible), RIGHT?" <- Our ability to make tools to cut down the forest and build a bridge *is* our adaptation. It's also worth noting that in the Fallout world, that same adaptation eventually caused us to destroy the world and nearly all of humanity. -- 06:13, November 15, 2010 (UTC)
True. Anyway I was just replying to Metalfrenchtoast regarding the BOS Shortfall and his Adapt or Die thingy. --DualRifle 05:52, November 19, 2010 (UTC)

It was a different style, but I still thought tactics was a good game. I'm a sucker for the tactical combat games, what can I say?. I mean, as far as fallout games go, it wasn't the furthest from canon, right? Anyway, I like the BOS as an entity in the game, but I don't like their silly practices. It'd do them some good to maybe crack those laser guns open and make something a little more useful. Sigpic small.jpg 07:23, November 15, 2010 (UTC)

I expect that the Capital Wasteland Brotherhood of Steel who are cannon are doing pretty well for themselves having effectively become regional leaders. 17:40, November 15, 2010 (UTC)

Understand that I like the BoS' place in the story from a literary perspective. They represent the Pre-War world (which is a satire of our world infused with 1950's sensibilities and analogues) and its hubris, paranoia, and materialism, and how that eventually leads to disaster. That's powerful stuff for a video game. But, from a roleplay perspective, playing as a person who is actually trying to help rebuild society, the BoS is clearly part of the problem and not the solution. Schneidend 17:47, November 15, 2010 (UTC)

Really the only way the BoS can survive is by making peace with NCR because all in all the NCR is far stronger than they are. The BoS keep to themselves whereas the NCR are establishing themselves and have become the largest and most succesfull post war government, and if they really wanted to they could wipe out the BoS just like they did the Enclave. Although the BoS have superior tech the NCR's OSI and if the NCR ally themselves with the FoA again then they can quickly out match the BoS on the tech side of things. Plus could you imagine the NCR and BoS allies, that would be FUCKING AWESOME. Together they could reconnect with Midwest BoS and CapWaste BoS, that could either cause one of two things an ultimate alliance streching across the whole of the US or a war on a giagantic scale. Looks like were going to have quite a few more Fallouts ahead. GodVsSanta 20:19, November 16, 2010 (UTC)

GodVsSanta, do remember that the one that "Destroyed" the Enclave was The "Chosen One" from Arroyo Tribe. Without him Enclave would have probably wipe out the rest of the world. The NCR (and the BOS) were only cleaning what's left of Enclave. So I doubt that the NCR could Wipe out BOS, especially with them busy in their war against the Caesar Legion. --DualRifle 05:52, November 19, 2010 (UTC)

given about a decade, maybe they could reconnect, but the Brotherhood seems to always have this problem with long distance relationships. FNV explains a lot about why the Capital Wasteland chapter lost contact with the Western Chapter. Because of the war with the New California Republic, its understandable that communications were disrupted, but even before the war they didn't even bother to maintain contact with the Colorado Chapter. I don't think there is one single brotherhood. It's kind of like Cherokee and Sioux. Both are Native Americans but they arn't the same tribe. I guess what I'm saying is you have to look at the Brotherhood as tribals rather than a government or militia. It's a shame though, that the Brotherhood has lost it's influence in it's own homeland. They claim to be Isolationist, but they let anyone in who either has the potential or the right technology, or can pay their way in. The Brothelhood of Steel. Hemms 23:04, November 16, 2010 (UTC)

The Brothelhood of Steel sounds like an excellent strip club idea. "Hey baby you look as good as prewar Tech." Sign me up! User: MoonshadowDark
Uh, what? Only the Capital Wasteland does that, the rest (apart from the Midwest fascists) are still as xenophobic as it gets. Tagaziel (call!) 07:49, November 19, 2010 (UTC)
Tagaziel although the Midwest BoS is considered as fascists but the way they allow all races from Deathclaws, Super Muties, Ghouls and Robots to enter the BoS and the fact they provided protection to nearly all those settlements in the Midwest when all they asked in return was for the strongest/smartess people to join the BoS, i don't ever recall the BoS forcing themselves on the settlements and tribes all in all they seem as democratic as the NCR. They both seem very similar the only flaw with them is they both occupy a vast area and can't keep control of everything in their territory due to leadership problems but never have they showed fascist actions.GodVsSanta 17:11, November 22, 2010 (UTC)

Ok for one thing thay are not afraid of out siders its just that thay dont let them join in. but just because one branch is failing (for resons that are pritty fair do to the bad leader ship) but thay are far from out.Itss one small part thats falling a little, dont any one forget who the biggest bad asses in all the games were -- 20:51, November 22, 2010 (UTC)

Is there a secret "Snuffles Wins" ending too? XD Nitty Tok. 20:54, November 22, 2010 (UTC)

one more thing the NCR is far from perfect, hell thay are just as bad as the BoS in most parts. ya thay let any one join but thay also force places to join, the NCR is power hungry and only is thinking about haveing more. now if i recall that sounds like something that could get people in wars, the BoS has the right idea in my book

You know what else starts wars? Deciding that the NCR is a bunch of ignorant savages and trying to take their technology away from them by force. Who would do such a foolish thing? Why, the Brotherhood, of course. Schneidend 04:06, November 25, 2010 (UTC)

Oh, the HELL that has been unleashed in this forum! --TacticalGamerXBL 17:34, November 27, 2010 (UTC)

I doubt the BoS will make peace with the NCR. They are a long standing, hardened old society of people with some of the most advanced technology. The reason the NV Brotherhood seems so pathetic is because they are cut off from their main area with limited troops and resources and no backup on the way (essentially, they are in the same boat as the Eastern BoS). Besides, even if the BoS should begin to falter, Bethesda wouldn't remove them or have them die off. the BoS defines the Fallout series. They are what makes it Fallout. The NCR are scumbags and evey other faction is way too small. Go BoS!!! Sombar1 18:36, November 27, 2010 (UTC)

The Brotherhood of Steel is merely iconic. They in no way define the franchise. 1950's retrofuturism and satire are what define the series. Schneidend 08:39, November 28, 2010 (UTC)
Same here. The Brotherhood of Steel are not essential to Fallout, nor were they ever meant to be. Hell, in Fallout 1 they're an entirely optional location and in Fallout 2 a mere footnote in the story of the game. Tagaziel (call!) 08:52, November 28, 2010 (UTC)

so you guys are saying that they could just kill them off and no one would say anything? They were here before anything. They began this, damn it. Having a fallout game without BoS is like having a fallout game without a laser rifle. It wouldn't make sense. Doable, yes, good, well, yes, but it would be better with it than without and no one can fucking disagree with me on that. Sombar1

I believe I just did disagree with that very notion, brochacho. The BoS was never meant to last this long. They were already on their last legs in Fallout 2. I'd wager the only reason Obsidian put them in New Vegas was to illustrate how the order is still on a serious downward slope to make up for Bethesda making the Brotherhood seem still pretty okay in FO3. I predict that the next game will take place in Chicago, and have nothing to do with the Brotherhood of Steel. -Schneidend 04:51, December 2, 2010 (UTC)
The only thing about that is that the Midwest BoS is based out of Chicago. And it seems Bethesda has decided parts of Tactics are canon. In FO3 the Midwest BoS is mentioned. But yeah, the West Coast BoS is done for.

On their last legs doesn't mean over. It may be near the end but it isn't the end now. They can still fight their way to the top. Sombar1 03:38, December 5, 2010 (UTC)

Yes, it means it's over for them. Every faction outnumbers them and the Brotherhood isn't getting any bigger, they're getting smaller and weaker over time. Tagaziel (call!) 09:58, December 5, 2010 (UTC)

yeah..thanks whoever deleted my post...which is against guidelines...anyway, BoS mean allot for the fallout 3 world, but unfortunately i have little knowledge of there significance in the other fallouts, but still there not really of any importance in fallout NV, hell if there wasn't a cutscene with you being grabbed and stuff when you first enter i would've probably shot the place up, at least until i realized i was shooting BoS, and also Sombar1, on its last legs does mean its over...though they had good ability to huddle and hide in there bunker in FNV they were for the most part kneeling while NCR held a gun to there head, and if your char doesn't try to help them (IE just nukes the bunker, or shoots them all to death) they would not have been successful in surviving, still, since fallout 3 was my first fallout i will for the most part, side with BoS, despite there fails so far, also as i stated in my original post, if your char hadn't come along the BoS would not have survived the enclave. Toolazytomakeaaccount 19:01, December 5, 2010 (UTC)

in my opinion just saying without the player making any action with or against the BOS like the ending where you forge an alliance with them and the NCR and depending on what you do the BOS can get helios one back and be doing fine so just saying there done makes no sense to me its all based off of player choice. by: "some random dude reading", December 12 2010

Ok think about this, we dont know. What we saw in NV was a small part of the BOS not the whole dam thing. --Kevin the Otaku 05:21, December 12, 2010 (UTC)

I'm disappointed in such the minor role the BoS played in this game. They have been on their last legs for a while, but the foundation of the BoS is preservation of technology and isolationism from the recruitment of outsiders, not never associating with them. On top of this, I don't see how the BoS in NV was self-sufficient. They live underground in a desert = no food or water. how could they survive. The boomers could live because they raised crops and channeled water. I think they should have done a better job with the BoS.

Yes I agree they had a minor role in the game and they should of had more of a part in the game. But when people say they suck and are rubbish, that is not true. They are the best force I think in the wasteland and maybe further because of their superior training, weapons and technology but the reason they lost the battle of Helios one is mainly down to the fact that they were outnumbered 5 to 1. Even with all that training and superior weapons at the end of the day, if one BOS Soldier was getting shot at by 10 NCR troopers or more then i'm pretty sure the odds are stacked against him. Although tactics in a battle effect's its outcome the most and historical battles in real life and fiction have been won before even though they are outnumbered, numbers does have a massive impact too. - KI_WI_16

As much as I do like the Brotherhood of Steel, I do have to say that their isolationism is going to be their downfall. The Capital Wasteland Brotherhood of Steel has done so well because they allowed others to join their Ranks. If the Rest of the Brotherhood would adapt and drop the xenophobia, than they have to chance to survive and thrive. What they don't see(and I can't believe I'm getting this philosophical over a video game) is that their isolationism is going to be their death. Genetics can only last so long with that kind of life style. Sooner or later they will have an abundance of children with special needs(no offense intended there, as they are still human beings). What they also don't see is that being that isolated, and feeling that all outsiders or savages, is that they are really going against their goal. To truly advance mankind, one must understand that Everyone has to be on the same page, otherwise we will constantly have wars, or conflicts, which usually only leads to regression. XxWillSxX 23:50, December 20, 2010 (UTC)XxWillSxX

The way I interpret the BoS situation is this: on the West Coast, the BoS have fought and pretty much lost a war with the NCR. Losses on both sides were high and what is left of the West Coast [Core region] BoS are hunkered down and scattered in various secret bunkers. Depending on if you help Veronica, not replace Macnamarra as Elder, the NV chapter of the BoS are still stuck in their isolationist views and thus are doomed to fail. The mid-west BoS, although deemed non canon [I think that it should be as the info does come from published games] are doing well as they've realised that they need to take in outsiders to bolster their numbers and look beyond their codex of conduct. The Captial Wasteland BoS are possibily the strongest faction in the US for the following reasons: although Liberty Prime was destroyed, it will be rebuilt thus giving them a devastating weapon to use, they would have gained massive amounts of equipment from Adams Airforce Base [hence the Vertibird that saves the Lone Wanderer at the end of Broken Steel] and they control the water purifier which means massive revenue and commerce for them. In addition, they would have access to Vault 112 VR facilities for training as well which would greatly enhance their recruits survival abilities. Elder Lyons saw the writing on the wall and made the right choice in helping the people of the capital wasteland and as such, the BoS there have become the new rulers of the area. In addition, they would have the knowledge that the Lone Wanderer would have collected [assuming that the LW was benign and helpful to the BoS] and perhaps even access to Mothership Zeta if the LW decided to share that enormous bit of tech with them. In my game, that is exactly what I would have done and as well, would have sent out a force to occupy The Pitt after killing Ashur and thus gaining control of the steel works there. Captain Taipan 00:36, December 21, 2010 (UTC)

      Wow if you could have given Mothership Zeta to the BOS in game, it would have made that DLC worth it 
      (almost)... - Mae Hemme

uh, on a side note...not like this isn't helping the DC BoS but they are not really considered apart of the brotherhood of steel and don't have much contact if any with the main forces, despite having the leaders son, or nephew i cant remember which. Sounga 02:05, December 21, 2010 (UTC)

erm, Sounga i do have to agree with Captain Taipan because that part of the brotherehood after doing everything he said with the LW then they could show all other BOS forces that although they have gone against several BOS rules they are doing really well and are thriving because they obviously own most of DC. Now with the LW at their side they can show the other BOS forces the way forward and show them how much they have accomplished even though they are going against rules. This could then hopefully change BOS ways and unite again with trading etc. One problem i see though is that War could be a result because the NV BOS and other forces would maybe not like the fact they have gone aginst rules. What do you think? - KI_WI_16

KI_WI_16 I think that if the Western BoS will change their views and go against their rules is dependent on who is the High Elder, because if the High Elder is the Jeremey Maxon from VB then i doubt very much that the BoS will change their ways. Since he was the one who initiated the War with the NCR, but thats only if Obsidian and Bethesda decide to make him High Elder, and if they do i see a War of the Maxons. While else would the DC BoS have Arthur Maxon with them, who is being trained by the only Sentinel we currently know of (unless we find out the LW has been made a Sentinel for single handedly destroying the Enclave at AAFB) they are obviously training him to be a leader, so once Owyn Lyons steps down Sarah will take up command and teach Arthur how to lead so once she steps down he will be Elder and by then the BoS should of ammased a stable government with the DC locals and have a large army with Liberty Prime, Maxon and LW at its head (if the LW is still alive). Once all of that has happened i can see the army marching or flying in Zeta over to the West to challenge the BoS, joining up with the MidWest BoS (because the MidWest BoS are Cannon because it says so in Fallout 3, the DC BoS were sent out West to search for new tech and to reastablish contact with the MidWest BoS) then they will fight the BoS and possibly the NCR and Caesars Legion also. That would be an amazing War. GodVsSanta

I think you've come up with a brilliant future game plot/story line here GodvsSanta. A Brotherhood of Steel civil war! As you outlined, the East Coast BoS have shown the way by becoming part of society once more and have established a new repulic. Using their captured Vertibirds, they send scouts back out west, only to encounter outright hostility from the West Coast conservative chapters. Meanwhile, both east & west coast BoS groups are vying for the loyalty of the mid west groups, eventually leading into outright conflict. So it'll be a re-run of the American civil war but set in the future and this time instead of the liberal north versus the conservative south, it will be the progressive east coast versus the conservative west coat. Just think of all the great civil war tunes that some crazed radio DJ could play as a homage to the past, Johnny comes Marching home, Battle hymn of the Repulic, Look Away Dixie land and so on... The best way to set this up would be that you, [the protagonist] are a junior member of the midwest BoS and ultimately decide on which side ends up winning. Lots of grey moral choices as wll as a few clear cut black and white ones. Plus other power groups getting involved like the NCR, the Commonwealth and another chance to introduce new factions. I'd set this story say 2291, thus giving enough time for the young Jeremey Maxon to grow up and become the young leader of the East Coast BoS. Captain Taipan 22:42, December 22, 2010 (UTC)
Yes i totally agree, make the Midwest BoS the turning point in the war, since both the DC and Western BoS are quite small in order to secure a victory over the other they will need Midwest support, and since the NV BoS could possibly help the NCR and go against the Codex we may have the NCR as being a major part aswell. If one side can get Midwest and NCR support then they can easily defeat the other and with members of BoS inside the NCR that can help one of the sides to establish an agreement. One other thing the Western BoS could have Verts, because in F2 the Chosen One could of given Vert blueprints to the BoS so the if both the West and DC have Verts then im thinking, a quest that involves piloting a Vert with others and fighting an arial battle. Also the DC BoS have access to so much more than just Verts, Vault 112s VR systems and the Pitts factories, they have Point Lookouts General Atomics Lab and the RobCo factory in DC, Perfect for a Robot Army. Free Weapons, Armour and Ammo from all the Forts and the National Guard Depo so every member will be decently equiped. Total Control, Every settlement in DC will need protection from the BoS and will need water from them and if the BoS takes over Canterbury they got the trade caravans more revenue, more local love, more willing recruits More Knights/Paladins. And lastly Adams Airforce Base must have blue prints and info on Jets and pre war aircraft, plenty of jets on rivet city, that can only equal one thing Jets, Bombing Runs. Although in general the DC BoS have the upper hand the West BoS won't come to them due to the War with NCR so that gives them plenty of time to prepare to fight the DC BoS and since they already have the experience of large scale war the DC BoS have only experienced small warfare so the Westerns will know how to handle the DC lot. All in all if Obsidian and Bethesda read this and decide to do something on it then this will be an amazing game. GodVsSanta 20:18, December 23, 2010 (UTC)
We are definately on the same page here GodvsSanta :D [no pun intended btw ;)] I always thought that the various factory buildings around the Dc wasteland such as the Corvega factory, the Robco plant at Ctanerbuer Commons, the Nuka Cola Plant to name but a few would be reactivated once stability had returned to the area once the DC BoS become the biggest power in the region. Since they have a real yearning for old world technology, they'd be leaping at the chance to send in scribes to investigate these places and see what could be salvaged and reactivated for future industrial production. The Pitt would be the place where raw materials would come from such as steel etc and since water caravans are going out, they'd be insane not to use the empty caravans to bring back raw materials back to DC for their reactivated factories. Salvaging the jets off Rivet city is another good idea although I'd say they wouldn't get very many due to erosion/rust etc. The West coast BoS may have Vertibird plans but do they have the facilities to build them? I'm assuming not. The way I see this scenario is that the West coast mirrors the south from the US civil war, limited industrial production capacity, smaller elite army lead by a few brilliant generals but ultimately championing a doomed cause. The DC BoS have the foctories and greater numbers but far less experience etc. The war itself wouldn't be a massive clash of steel per se but rather a serious of low level engagements while furious lobbying of the midwest BoS takes place and the outcome of the war will be decided by the player's actions.
I see the player as being a neutral party once again exactly like the situation as in New Vegas. Your choices will effect the fate of the nation, shape the future of American as it heads into the 24th century. The scale of the game will be epic and possibily come in 2 or even 3 parts with DLC modules as well. Yep, that's what I'd like to see Captain Taipan 00:02, December 24, 2010 (UTC)
That would be amazing, what i think the main point of the whole thing will be all the different factions and how each one has got a part of a proper government. The West BoS can keep everything running tightly, DC BoS can utilise others under one banner yet still keeping their own ideals, Midwest BoS are ultimately against racism and are open to everyone, NCR have a good pre-war political system, Caesars Legion make sure that everyone in the legion is safe, FoA understand tech and know when to say thats enough, Great Khans know how to inspire their people, and lastly the Enclave (though we all know they are the most flawed of them all) they know how to keep everything in line they know how keep track of everything. Not to mention that each of them have something non political to advance their cause, West BoS have experience in plenty of tough situations, DC BoS have tech and plenty of items pre-war and post-war to sell to get revenue, MidWest BoS have a huge army and lots of towns and cities already, NCR have rail roads lots of loyal citizens, Caesars Legion have territory in 4 states, FoA have technical and medical knowledge, Great Khans know how to adapt to new situations and places, and the Enclave have the best pre-war knowledge and tech (all though they are no longer here im sure the BoS NCR and FoA can teach the player about what they were like). Although it may seem like im just listing off different irrelivent things but all of them add up in this ultimate game idea.
As a neutral person in order to create the ultimate government and leading faction that you want, it requires that you find each of these different major factions and some minor factions too so you can understand politics and how to fight a war, because just like all the fallout games in the past the protagonist is a nobody to start with no prior knowledge of fighting, warfare, politics, medicine, public speaking and just general things to involving the post war violent life style. So the game should take a really long time including a build up to meeting the 3 factions that are most important and all the other major factions so the player gets a good idea as to which factions believe so there are no rushed decisions with people going straigh for "Good", "Evil" or "Neutral" faction the player will learn that behind every door is a whole room filled with hidden things. Making an overall more enjoyable and more morally conflicting game and story. GodVsSanta 01:06, December 24, 2010 (UTC)

GodVsSanta and Captain Taipan should write an entirely new fallout game.

Thank you whoever sent that reply, i would love to write for Fallout. Currently i writing a story based on the new Bioware Star Wars game The Old Republic that once i have finished i will send it to Bioware and Lucasarts and if i am super lucky i might get a book out (although i doubt very much i will) but once i've finished with that i will start to write a story to do with Fallout, and ask people on the forums like Captain Taipan for suggestions.
Everything that i write is purely fan fiction i have no intention in making money out of anything i write without signed consent from the producers of all franchises i have wrote about.
sorry but it seems that you have to put that in if you're go to do something indenpendantly and include game,movie,book, ect content.GodVsSanta 00:09, December 28, 2010 (UTC)
I agree with GodvsSanta, thanks for the compliment and endorsement of our idea of a possible new Fallout game. It's one thing to come up with a new game concept plot premise but its a wholly different kettle of fish to actually write it and , plan and script it and that's even before a programmer comes along and tries to turn the idea into a game. Still, the idea is intriguing and who's to say Bethesda et al wouldn't be interested in a more fleshed out concept for a Fallout game? I think the thing to do would be to put together a summary of the concept and picth it to the developers and see if they're interested. I'm certain that they get hundreds, if not thousdands of ideas emailed to them as well. However, you have to have a go if you believe your idea is worthy of their attention. And like GodvsSanta, I was toying with the idea of a story that follows up on the aftermath of FO3, covering the years from 2278 to 2281 and submitting that to Bethesda for their consideration. Captain Taipan 02:26, December 30, 2010 (UTC)
i completely get what you're saying, i believe that if i truely want to get through to Bethesda i would have to go to Obsidian first the Obsidian crew seem alot more open to changing and altering the fallout games. Just look at the difference between F3 and FNV, and with what a success NV has been that if Obsidian backed the idea then there will be little chance Bethesda will so no. So thank you Captain Taipan in a one or two years down the line possibly longer i will be sure not to leave you out if i get to pitch the idea to Bethesda and Obsidian. GodVsSanta 20:06, December 30, 2010 (UTC)

..If this doesnt end up getting made into a game you guys should totally co-author a Fallout build your own adventure story... huge ass book but still plenty of epic ideas getting tossed around in here. oo Dynames oo 01:43, January 6, 2011 (UTC)

Tagz Fallout Critique.png

Ah, how I neglected this topic... let's play. First of all, in no way is the Brotherhood necessary in a Fallout game. Yes, it is iconic, but they were never the focus until they were brought to the center stage by Fallout: Tactics. In Fallout 1 they were an entirely optional location that could be safely ignored (albeit at the expense of not having access to power armour, which isn't that horrible, as combat armour and Psycho get the job done just as well), a faction that wanted the wasteland to ignore it. In Fallout 2 their isolationism has already weakened them to the point where they couldn't compete at any level with the Enclave. They were a footnote in the game. Tactics might very well be the biggest cause of problems in the Fallout franchise, as it remade the Brotherhood from a high tech, reclusive faction of isolationists into a faction that can send its people on missions across the United States and likely caused the travesty that is Lyons' Brotherhood to appear in Fallout 3. A Fallout game can do without the Brotherhood. Wait, no, correction, a Fallout game post-New Vegas should not feature any Brotherhood at all.

Now, to estabilish some facts. The Brotherhood is failing. Not just one branch, but the entire network of Brotherhood chapters on the West Coast. The Mojave Chapter has lost the war against the NCR and was forced into hiding; the Lost Hills Brotherhood is doomed to destruction in the near future, as they are unable to compete with the NCR's industrial capability and sheer numbers. The only faction that's in a more or less decent state is Lyons; however, even he does not have access to any industrial-grade facilities capable of creating new weapons and ammunition, they all rely on scavenged goods. Even the midwest Brotherhood is relatively small, a feudal kingdom where loyal subjects in controlled villages work to support the elite - Brotherhood higher ups.

Many of you forget that the Brotherhood is a small, monastic order. They have training and technology, but there are too few of them to compete with other factions. They are isolationist, shunning outsiders, they are not going to grow, they will wither and die eventually, if not due to their xenophoby, then to incompetent leadership, eg. Lyons.

Now, to address Cap. Taipan: No, the situation is not as you present it. Liberty Prime cannot be reconstructed, Scribe Rothschild's plan is a pipe dream. Prime was the apex of pre-War technology, constructed by two of the biggest US corporations with access to pretty much unlimited resources. What does Lyons have? Scrap, scrap, scrap. He doesn't have any steel mills to supply him with high quality metal and alloys to reforge the chassis; no high tech workshops that can rebuild the electronics and create new ones; no industrial capability to construct high-explosive charges. At best, they can construct a frankenstein of a robot that will be a pale imitation of the once great weapon systems.

On their industrial capability, as I said, they have none. Adams Air Force Base is a burned-out husk, the bulk of the Enclave ordnance was located on the mobile base crawler, which is destroyed at the end of Broken Steel. The scraps of tech that are lying around the base are not nearly enough to supply them for a long term. Yes, they do control the purifier, but water alone is not going to give them any high tech required to maintain their level of technology, let alone create new weapons. The Brotherhood may temporarily become a powerhouse in the Capital Wasteland, but since Lyons is in charge, they are not going to capitalize on it, since he's both idealistic and incompetent. If you recall, he is responsible for the Brotherhood hunting the white whale (supermutants) in DC downtown, instead of helping he wasteland by ridding it of slavers, Little Lamplight and Talon Company. He insisted on fighting with the Enclave, rather than attempting to find a peaceful solution. Finally, he is an idiot that brought a child with him to DC.

Going on, Vault 112 is not usable by the Brotherhood. It's proprietary technology of Braun, who has programmed and reprogrammed it over the two centuries. Furthermore, even if he didn't, Lyons does not have a scribe able to operate and maintain VR systems at his disposal. Cracking an Enclave deathclaw control crown is one thing, programming military scenarios and environments for a system that does not support it (the Chinese invasion simulation is lethal, remember) is another. Your point about the Pitt is amusing - what makes you think the Brotherhood would be able to take the Pitt? They might have a handful of Vertibirds, but they won't be using them to bomb the city if they want the steel mill to be intact. On the ground, Ashur's raiders are more than a match for them, even moreso considering the fact that Ashur is familiar with the Brotherhood's tactics and Lyons mindset. The Brotherhood forces would be routed and individually destroyed, assuming they'd even have the resources to reach the Pitt and estabilish a stable supply line to the Capital Wasteland.

GodVsSanta, the Brotherhood is incapable of creating a stable government. They are isolationist and focus on military technologies. Tell me, how are they going to create a stable government if they have problems with transportation and lack the necessary engineering knowledge to improve the situation? Creating fortifications is one thing, building roads and cities is another. As I've also outlined above, they do not have the resources necessary to create an army, much less maintain it. Ask yourself, where would they get the food? Ammunition? Manpower? Spare parts? Energy cells and spare batteries? The NCR is qualified to fight a war because they have a massive industrial and agricultural base. Where is it in the Capital Wasteland?

Now, the both of you. I'm really quite suprised at the lack of imagination on your part. Lack of analytical skill does not suprise me. A Brotherhood civil war? Really? As outlined above, they are miniature organizations compared to the vast New California Republic or the might Caesar's Legion. It's likely that the Institute is also a force to reckon with, as is the Pitt, both of which likely have access to vast stockpiles of weapons and ammunition, far more than the East Coast could muster. Furthermore, the West Coast Brotherhood is all but dead. They aren't going to get back up. I've enumerated above why this scenario cannot be plausible, but let's restate the key points:

  • Liberty Prime is not going to be rebuilt. Rothschild's pipe dream is hampered by lack of technology and industrial capacity to rebuild the machine.
  • Lyons has no industrial capability, no available factories to build weapons and ammunition at, no stable source of food, nothing. The Pitt would not be occupied, for reasons stated above.
  • Adams Air Force Base is a scavenged husk with little usable ordnance. What stockpiles they had went up with the crawler.
  • Vault 112 is unusable; its software has been altered by Braun repeatedly; it's not suited for combat scenarios, as those are outright lethal to the occupants.
  • Lyons' Brotherhood is a mlitary outfit; they lack people and knowledge necessary to create a functioning government and cities

Now, let's focus on your key points. Yes, the West Coast might have some Vertibirds. However, since the Brotherhood does not have any apparent large scale industrial capacity to build such vehicles from scratch, they likely do not have any available units. The only faction that's confirmed to have some V's is the NCR and even it uses them for transportation (did you see any Vertibird belonging to the NCR at Hoover Dam?).

Going on, you claim that the East Coast Brotherhood has access to "so much more". What makes you think that any of the factories are in a salvageable state? You don't seem to grasp the concept of "two centuries of neglect". Factories, particularly automated ones, are very precise instruments that require constant maintenance and a stready stream of replacement parts to function. If a factory has been left unattended for two hundred years, without maintenance, it's going to be rusted through, corroded beyond recognition. You don't just go in and press a button to start everything again - Lyons' men would have to replace entire machines, not just single parts and that's just impossible, seeing how the industry has been dead for the past two centuries. If you're going to write about someting, do some basic research. Our modern world's industries are interconnected, they need each other to survive. Building a car is far more than just putting metals together - you need fresh aluminium, fresh steel, electronics, rubber for wheels (which i made from oil and oil is in very short supply) etc. There's a good reason for the lack of vehicles on the West Coast. As Chris Avellone stated, the problem are spare parts - tires, cables, electronics etc. Since there is no available source of them on the east coast, beyond scavenging, restarting a factory would be impossible. Especially a factory such as RobCo. or Corvega. Robots and cars are very intricate machines - where would Lyons find the technology and materials to manufacture new lamps, control chips, chassis, plasma guns etc., eh? What's even more amusing is your claim about "jets". Jet fighters require massive amounts of specialized fuel to function. Where would the Brotherhood obtain the oil necessary to produce it and the facilities to refine it? That's assuming any of the jets is in any operational condition, since you seem to forget that each jet in Rivet City was left out to the elements and rusted for about two hundred years. A jet is just as complicated as a robot - where'd Lyons get the supplies necessary to rebuild them, assuming his forces have the blueprints (which is unlikely, given the state of Adams)?

You also completely forget about the scale. An army requires massive amounts of food, ammunition and basic amenities to function. Tell me, where would Lyons find brass, lead and necessary supplies to produce ammunition on an industrial scale? We're talking about millions of bullets of varying caliber, necessary to supply soldiers in training, in the field and also for basic training. That's completely ignoring issues such as having a reliable food supply and/or armour and spare parts. Also, you like to throw the word "epic" a lot. I don't know if you've noticed, but the entire point of Fallout is that it's not epic. Factions do not battle across multiple states, they battle on relatively small frontlines estabilished in single states or across their borders. The largest factions in the Fallout universe, the NCR and the Legion, control, at best, the equivalent of two states, if you put together their holdings outside Arizona and California. Yet you claim that the Brotherhood will be able to build an army large enough to control half of the United States landmass? Please, have you put any thought in the idea at all, or did you just wrote down what felt "cool"?

Last, the Midwest Brotherhood is not as powerful or large as you might like to think. First of all, they are fascists who forcefully estabilish their control over villages, demanding a tribute of men and supplies in exchange for protection (which isn't even that good, as evidenced by the fact that your second mission in Tactics concerns the rescue of a tribal elder kidnapped by raiders from a village you just brought under the Brotherhood's protection). They don't treat supermutants, ghouls and deathclaws as equals; hell, their military leader, Barnaky, was a declared specieist, who loathed "lesser" races, such as the aforementioned mutants, even if the Elder council saw their usefulness in combat. They operate internment camps and brutally press those they conquer into service (ever heard of inquisitors?). And in the end, they aren't a big organization. They control a decent stretch of land, but they do it through brutal force, not any kind of refinement. The attrition rate among initiates is horrifying, they are treated like cannon fodder, no, scratch that, they are cannon fodder. And to finally confirm my point, they operate in squads. Not platoons, not battalions, squads. Squads of six. They are a miniature, elitist faction organized more like a kingdom (with a king (General), his council (Elders), nobility (Paladins and high ranking Scribes and Knights) and subjects working and dying so that the elite can continue to stay in power. Hell, even the people under their control hate them (recall Coldwater?).

Really, both of you, before you submit anything to Bethesda, LucasArts or indeed any publisher, first think your idea over and look at it with a critical eye. Just writing what feels "cool" does not make a cool story, game or book. It's just a miserable waste of bytes. Tagaziel (call!) 16:14, January 6, 2011 (UTC)

Why do you have to criticize everyone, cut them some slack tell them whats good about it. If your so knowledgable you think of a good storylineKill-da-mutant 16:23, January 6, 2011 (UTC)

He's doing them a service. Shitty ideas don't need to be coddled. If he's wrong, why don't you counter his argument?--OvaltinePatrol 17:34, January 6, 2011 (UTC)

Yes, some hard critique was becoming inevitable.-----Seqeu0 18:33, January 6, 2011 (UTC)

I would but theres no way im reading all of that and its not just this its in every single post someone makes this wiki is suppose to be welcoming. Yes I understand the you do need to give people some bad points to help them but a few good points cant go a miss either, remember if you put people down enought times they stay downKill-da-mutant 18:46, January 6, 2011 (UTC)

That's the intention. If they stay down then we won't get anymore stupid ideas like this. Stealth Cl0wn 19:53, January 6, 2011 (UTC)
The closest he comes to putting anyone down is questioning the thought process behind what they said. As for pointing out the good points, what if there weren't any? Do you want to give him a gold star for participation or something?--OvaltinePatrol 20:41, January 6, 2011 (UTC)

At the very least its imagnitive, more than some people are coming up withKill-da-mutant 22:26, January 6, 2011 (UTC)

Im glad for the feedback, thank you i understand all the points that you have put across. Critiques need to be harsh sometimes to allow people an idea of where they've gone wrong so they can adapt and i am grateful that someone has pointed it out. But the critising that you are doing isn't constructive in parts, when i read everything that you wrote i felt that the main point you put across was not to try and help anyone get better at story writing and improve and change the ideas we put forward for the better. Really all it seems is you think you're the big fucking boss and you don't like fuck all. Which i except in some cases, i know there are alot of parts to this that are flawed and will need adaptation, but i don't like the fact that all you want to achieve from you're posts is to crush people.

Oh and too all of you agreeing with him. Why the fuck didn't you post you're ideas, add you're critique mindsets to the table, if you truely don't like something we've posted as an idea then tell us give us advice, don't just jump on the bandwagon of someone elses thunderstorm.

The last thing i would like to add is. Tagaziel (call!) i've read what you don't like about our ideas, so now tell me (in a shortened version im not thick as shit and neither is Taipan) what are the good parts to our ideas. What do you like about it, GIVE US MORE FEEDBACK, this time not discrediting everything and trying to crush our creative minds and such.

P.S: I don't give a Shit what you say about it, you're not going to crush me. I'm not going to stay down. GodVsSanta 23:46, January 8, 2011 (UTC)

You'd first have to throw out the Brotherhood out the window altogether and come up with a creative new faction for me to point out the good points. Tagaziel (call!) 00:58, January 9, 2011 (UTC)

Ok, here's a idea for the brotherhood, that i think would be most suitable. Back in Lost Hills, through a series of assinations and oustings and declaring a cease fire between all NCR and Brotherhood forces, the Brotherhood changes its outlook in recruitment of outsiders and is no longer focused on gaining weapons technology, meaning their much more flexible but they wont let anyone in. Due to mindless beaucracy and increasing taxes by the NCR, many angry and let down citizens defect to the Brotherhood with their expertise, these include scientists, engineers, soldiers, rangers,disenchanted FotA scientists etc. All the NCR can do is grind their teeth due to the cease fire and eventual truce. 02:29, January 9, 2011 (UTC) Sec 19

Ok, firstly to address Tagaziel:

Fallout [all versions and makes btw] is a fantasy gaming universe and as such, doesn’t have to follow real life rules. In fact it totally leaps over them and sails in the air over massively glaring inconsistencies but that doesn’t matter because we know it is just a game and accept it. Items like irradiated food that has lasted somehow for 200 years and is still edible is way beyond the bounds of possibility but again, it’s not all that important because it’s a game, not a reality simulation. Structures like TenPenny Towers standing tall and intact while all around is rubble and ruins, makes absolutely no sense but it’s not important because its part of the story.

Being able to use VATS to pause in a fight to select a head shot is ludicrous but that’s what the game designers came up with and we go along with it.

So coming up with ideas like the east coast BoS being able to restart factories in the DC waste land, them being able to head back to The Pitt and take it over for their own use, [they did it before but that fact you completely ignore], being able to establish by force of arms a stable government over the DC wasteland is all within the realms of possibility simply because it is a make believe world.

In addition, I had a time frame in mind, a period of 5 years to be exact and not an instant transformation of the DC Wasteland into a Utopia of industrialisation. You say Lyons is incompetent however, he is still alive and in charge of the most powerful faction in the region. That’s hardly the work of an incompetent eh? Yes Adams AFB was hit by the orbital strike but only it was only the platform crawler that took the hit, not the hangers or any of the other buildings the Enclave were using. So it stands to reason there’d be plenty of salvage left. They may not be able to create any high tech weapons but they would certainly be able to keep the ones they do have going since they have captured salvage from the Enclave. Your point about the super mutants being the white whale is utter rubbish. At the time they were the greatest threat to the DC wasteland, not Talon Company and not the slavers at Paradise Falls either. And when the Enclave reared their ugly heads, Lyons switched his focus onto fighting them as the Enclave were the greatest threat to the DC Wasteland and the BoS. Also, why does bringing a child into the Dc Wasteland make him incompetent? That sounds like Politically Correct dribble to me and is totally out of context. Lyons had no choice but to bring the boy along. It’s not like he could drop off the kid at some crèche now is it?

I do grasp the concept that factories are salvageable in the 200 years since the bombs fell because I keep it within the context and confines of the Fallout Universe. How is it then that an orbital laser be started up and fired 200 years since the bombs feel as you can do in New Vegas or get a massive battle robot going after it’d been left to rot in the bottom of the ruins of the Pentagon? The game doesn’t factor in industrial ability but there is enough evidence to show that its there. The Pitt is making steel, so that proves raw materials and factories can be brought back on line on the east coast. The NCR is fielding a large army and again, that proves that ammunition, food and all the other requirements to maintain a large standing army in the field and in combat is achievable in the Fallout Universe. Vault 112 could be reprogrammed by scribes from the BoS if given enough time. They’d have to do a deal with the outcasts to get the Operation Anchorage simulation. It would take a lot of haggling but everyone has a price, you just have to find out what it is.

Finally, this was just a first pass at an idea of what could be for a future FO game or lore. Like any first draft, they need revision. Oh, btw, if an idea is “cool” its got more chance of being accepted than if it’s a diatribe of negative ranting. Just a thought you know.

In conclusion, there is a perk that perfectly describes you over on NMA:

As to OvaltinePatrol, it is your opinion that this is a shitty idea but then it’s my opinion that your writing Fanon site is execrable and nothing more than a circle jerk of hack wannabies who no doubt got the finger from game designers. Since opinions are either equally valid or equally worthless, it really doesn’t matter what you or I say but it is important on how we say it and since you choose to be offensive with your comment, I return the compliment. I read through your sites efforts and its total hostility to any newcomers and knew that this was a place of mattress munchers and pillow biters.

And StealthClown, [don't think I fortgotten you] who made you the arbiter of free speech hmm? Just because you don’t like an idea, does that mean you get to decide that we should “stay down” and not respond because you say so? ROFLMAO! That’s just hilarious :) So in retort Clown, NO YOU! I think you should be able to understand that. Captain Taipan 07:00, January 9, 2011 (UTC)

Wow..Open hostility to constructive criticism? And yes, it is constructive and not a wall of hate, as he did give a few good points, and didn't just bash your idea alltogether. The reason he doesn't think any of it's good is because your main faction is the BOS, which is (in Tagaziel opinion) basically near collapse. Now tell me, if you made one of the most awesome stories around, with an amazing plot and equally amazing charcters, with huge wars and stuff blowing up, but then you go and make Little Lamplight the main faction, would anyone take it seriously?


Also, responding to the people agreeing by saying "Why the fuck didn't you post you're ideas, add you're critique mindsets to the table, if you truely don't like something we've posted as an idea then tell us give us advice, don't just jump on the bandwagon of someone elses thunderstorm," ain't really the smartest thing to do is it? What would be the point of about five other people posting the exact same wall of text as Tagaziel?

Captain Taipan, the game is umreealistic in some parts, but game developers have to sacrifice realisim for gameplay balance. They don't have to sacrifice realisim for the plot. A game where you have to eat sleep and drink equal to the amount in real life, have to shower, worry about personal hygeine, bills and whatnot, would be very imersive, but most of the time you'd be thinking "Hey, couldn't I be doing this in real life?". Equally, a game where unicorn robot ninja turtles roam the land, battleing Santa Clause in the fire's of Mordor would, admittdley, be fun for a while, but only as a casual thing. Try and make it as serious as the Fallout sereis, and it would ultimatley flop.

Anyway, i'll be off now. Got a good game idea floting in my head. Unicorn Ninja Turle Robots, yes, that sounds like a good title... Finish Him! 08:36, January 9, 2011 (UTC)

Here's where you are wrong Taipan. Fallout has always been a very serious take on the post-apocalypse - your claim that Fallout 3 is stupid, therefore the entire series can be is, well, stupid. Fallout 1/2, the games that defined Fallout are serious (despite certain elements in Fallout 2) and realistic. As New Vegas shows, the setting is still a realistic one, even if the spin-off tried to prove it otherwise.
Now, ad rem. If you're trying to make an argument based on the Fallout setting, it's worth to actually do your research. The Scourge of the Pitt was pathetically easy, as the Brotherhood encountered no resistance there, just scattered savages. It's Ashur, the Paladin they left for dead there, who united them and reforged the tribals squatting in the ruins into a well organized, ruthless fighting force. Furthermore, he is intimately familiar with the Brotherhood tactics and strategems, meaning he can counter them easily.
Next, the time frame. Five years? Sorry, but that's simply not feasible. Did you do any research into how the industry works? Or what is required to make them work? Five years is way too little time to rebuild factories, reestabilish mining and large scale salvage weapons, train people in operating the machines and maintaining them, not to mention figuring out how to manufacture weapons, ammo and other ordnance. Adams is not salvageable, it's been rusting for nearly two centuries before it was destroyed by the Brotherhood. What little salvage is available from makeshift stores in the hangars is not comparable to the amount of technology and equipment that went up with the crawler and certainly not enough to allow Lyons' soldiers to maintain their weapons for an extended period of time.
Furthermore, Lyons is incompetent. I'm not referring to Arthur - he brought his own five year old daughter to the Capital Wasteland on one of the most dangerous expeditions the Brotherhood has ever undertook. That's not responsible parenting, that's purebred stupidity. And his objectives? Please. Do your research - the supermutants were present in the wasteland since 2078. If they haven't been able to overrun it for the c.a. 150 years until Lyons arrived, then it's obvious they wouldn't be able to nor are they the threat he makes them out to be. As the Outcasts say, he's simply a sad, old man, obsessed with old enemies. That's even more frustrating considering that Col. Autumn actually wanted to rebuild the Capital Wasteland and activate the Purifier - he openly disagreed with Eden's genocidal tendencies towards mutants. Lyons' war against the Enclave is the result of the petty obsession of the Brotherhood, not their actual evil.
Nachste antwort. You don't stay within the context and confines of the Fallout Universe. You're using Bethesda's plotholes and inconsistencies to excuse your own and that simply won't do. Liberty Prime working after 200 years is silly. The Archimedes II, however, is not, since it's located in the vacuum of space, where environment is not an issue. It isn't exposed to the wind, changing temperatures or any humidity. It's an incredibly durable piece of technology (as durability is necessary to survive the incredibly hostile environment of the vacuum of space) that easily survived two centuries because it laid dormant. For example, Vanguard 1, an American satellite that has remained in orbit for the past 52 years. With the more advanced tech of the Fallout universe it's certain that satellites can remain in orbit and operational longer than that.
As for your claim that the games don't factor in industrial capacity... Really? Have you played the original Fallouts? Industrial capacity was one of the basic design elements of each settlement, hell the Hub's entire raison d'etre was trade and industry, producing raw materials to sell eg. to Adytum merchants. Adytum was producing tools and ammunition. The Gun Runners manufacture weapons. In Fallout 2 practically every town has an industrial capacity to justify its existence. Modoc grows crops (and has problems you can resolve); Vault City produces high quality medical supplies; Gecko generates power and salvage; NCR is NCR; Broken Hills mines uranium for power generators and Gecko etc. I've never said that fielding a standing army and supplying them is impossible - I pointed out that it's impossible for the Brotherhood of Steel to do so, as they are war machines, not engineers of architects. They're a reclusive, xenophobic order, not a charity. Hell, Lyons isn't the charitable persona he passes himself off as. If he truly was, he'd do some research on the supermutants, figure out they aren't a significant threat, and focus on the raiders, slavers and Talon Company in addition to securing the wastes. As it stands, Outcasts are doing a far better job actually protecting the wastelanders, rather than the self-professed defenders who camp out in the Pentagon and pass time shooting supermutants in DC downtown, where no human settlements are present. Furthermore, your example of the Pitt is flawed, as the Pitt is the only factory on the East Coast that has been restored and it's been only through the coordinated effort of slaves and raiders under Ashur's guidance. Lyons has shown no intent whatsoever to restart industry. Last, the Outcasts are never going to work with traitors. They have integrity and follow orders. Lyons has shown that he's both incompetent and disloyal.
In conclusion, you should throw out the entire idea and start from scratch, first eliminating the Brotherhood altogether. Then, do some research on how industry works and how wars are fought. Finally, familiarize yourself with the Fallout setting properly before you start writing any ideas, as your grasp of it is... tenuous, at best. Remember, just because something is "cool" doesn't mean it's good.
One last note: consider yourself officially warned for insulting other users. To indulge you: I'm married and I have a perfectly healthy sexual life. Tagaziel (call!) 10:12, January 9, 2011 (UTC)

Now you look at this, this forum has become HUGE lol, now certainly WHAT THE HELL IS WRONG WITH YOU PEOPLE? you CAN'T i repeat CAN'T make a Fallout game without BoS, it will be like making a fallout without NUKES and RADIATION it'll be MW2, THAT BAD IT'LL BE. it's like making a corpse without a soul, a lot of you are saying that they weren't important on the first games, yes they weren't gameplay wise but in the plot they are much more important. also fallout 3 introduced the concept of a more important BoS. but lets think, hasn't the BoS appeared in ANY Fallout game created to this day? awnser: YES. WHY? BECAUSE THE DEVS LIKE THEM...AND IF THE DEVS LIKE THEM THEY GONNA STAY or at least that's what i think, please don't jump to the conlusion of hurrrrr....they gonna die...durrrrrrrrrrrrr' if they have survived this long that must mean something, da civil war idea didn't look so bad until the huge criticism came..., well the time will awnser our questions (and the devs)

PD: NCR can S.M.D i hope the vault dweller had cannonically killed aradesh...and tandi...and everyone in shady sands.--Nuke-a-Punch 09:30, January 9, 2011 (UTC)

Nuke-A-Punch, the very fact that NCR exists means that Aradesh and Tandi survived. Why don't you stop posting pointless gibberish and actually do some research, or play the originals? Next, the Brotherhood is in no way essential to Fallout. They were a perfectly ignorable footnote in Fallout 2 and it's considered by many gamers to be the best Fallout game out there. Similarly, they're a sideline in New Vegas, yet it's the best Fallout 3 one can count for. Try doing some research. Tagaziel (call!) 10:12, January 9, 2011 (UTC)

Tagaziel you keep saying that the BoS is not essential to Fallout yet i'll bet you that if you ask anyone "whats the first thing that comes to mind when you think about Fallout Games" they will say the BoS, not because they are the most successful, that they are most likely to create a stable government and that they will be able to start up industries again. NO! its because they near enough ARE Fallout, they are the most popular faction amoungst Fallout fan. Look back at the Fallout games: F1 what was on the front cover of the game case hmm... was it the NCR. NO! was it a group of people smelting steel and crafting weapons. NO! ok then this is just a stab in the dark but was it the BoS. FUCKING YES! they are on the front cover to F1 and if they weren't essential to Fallout why were they also put on the cover to Tactics and F3, why did they appear in F2, Fallout BoS and FNV. I will answer that question for you. They are fucking popular people love them, they saw them in F1 and fell in love. Getting rid of them now would be like George Lucas saying "you know what the Jedi in StarWars they're Jedi Code is pretty much bullshit, they can't create a stable leadership by abiding by that Codex, they will never be successful. Im going to cut the Jedi out of StarWars for good"

Do what you told us to do and fucking think before suggesting things alright!

Oh an one last thing, you say you have a wife and kids right. Then why are you spend hours writing bullshit posts on game forums, Fucking Prioritise Mate. GodVsSanta 12:21, January 9, 2011 (UTC)

GodVSanta, aren't you also posting on a forum and equally wasting as much time as Tagaziel? But then, aren't I wasting equal amountof time telling you that? Then wouldn't someone else waste time by telling me i'm wasting time, which would lead me to telling them that they're wasting time...... Finish Him! 14:39, January 9, 2011 (UTC)

Have you asked anyone? Because the Brotherhood is not what comes to mind when I think about Fallout. Retrofuturistic classic RPG instead appears in my head. A T-51b power armour is on the cover of Fallout, not the Brotherhood of Steel. It's there because it immediately sets the mood, showing the clunky, alternate-future technology. I've never connected it to the Brotherhood.
In Fallout 2, the second game released, they barely existed and Van Buren would've kept them as one of the major factions, albeit a broken and almost-defeated one. Tactics and FO:BOS are the games that made the Brotherhood what they are today and Bethesda added them in just because they were "cool" to have, not because it made a lick of sense.
Last, kid, do limit your swearing. It doesn't make you look more mature, to the contrary. Tagaziel (call!) 14:52, January 9, 2011 (UTC)

i don't normally swear this much, its only wankers like you who piss me off with you're obsession with starting flame wars and attempting to troll people, and don't say that you're not trying to piss people off and that all you're doing is trying to correct peoples ignorance or whatever you think you're trying to do with your posts because before you came along me and Taipan were have a good time on this forum and you have just ruined this whole thing. GodVsSanta 17:56, January 9, 2011 (UTC)

This forum isn't your personal playground to have a good time in. If you post on a public forum, then you are telling everyone "come here and discuss, even rip apart my ideas, it's fair game, since I post it in the open!". Don't want criticism? Keep your ideas to yourself then. Or discuss them in private. Tagaziel (call!) 23:20, January 9, 2011 (UTC)

well the story idea sounded good, not sure about if it was good or not but it sounded good, and to be fair the most common faction to wear T-51b power armor is the brotherhood of steel, few classes can match the skill level of the BoS, as for there small numbers and occasional stupidity, that kinda evens things up, but if the BoS did have the same numbers as many of these factions id put my money on them, but still that's a pretty big if, besides i guess i wouldn't put any faith into these npc factions, in fallout 3 "oh no those super mutants sure are tough, well die...oh look its a non computerized player, look he uses realistically advancing in power weapons to deal with these harder level foes, why didn't we think of that?" Sounga 18:15, January 9, 2011 (UTC)

Not everything that sounds good is actually good. Especially if it doesn't make sense in the context of the universe. The Brotherhood is a miniscule organization that's been dying a slow death ever since the Master was defeated. Tagaziel (call!) 23:20, January 9, 2011 (UTC)

User: Tagaziel i HAVE played the first games (not completed) , I AM (at least what i have read in this wiki) knowledgeable about the first games, please read more carefully, what i meant was to say something like i hope they delete the NCR of the map because honestly I HATE THEM, their just a bunch of incompetent green dudes being led by idiots and pretty much eating every chunk of earth that comes in their way to expand, and YES when i hear the word fallout i think in power armor, WHO wears power armor? maybe you will say that everyone with one, but NO, the first group you think of is the BoS, AND most importantly IF THE DEVS HAVE KEEPED THE BoS ALIVE FOR SO MUCH TIME AND THEY APPEAR IN EVERY FALLOUT GAME TO THIS VERY MOMENT, THEN WHY WHY WHY WHY would they kill them? it doesn't makes sense, personally if they do so i will lose my faith in my favorite franchise.--Nuke-a-Punch 20:55, January 9, 2011 (UTC) PD: Both of you don't need to insult each other, this is a forum not a f***ing troll nest.--Nuke-a-Punch 20:55, January 9, 2011 (UTC)

NCR is far from incompetent. They are corrupt, yes, and they are land grabbers, but they also have the biggest and most powerful military in the wasteland at their disposal and access to a great, powerful industry. Hell, they won the war with the Brotherhood and that's pretty telling.
Also, do understand that your opinion isn't necessarily shared by everyone. And also learn to critically analyze matters. The Brotherhood was, again, merely a footnote in Fallout 2, it wasn't until Tactics and FOPOS that it started to be marketed as the kewl guys. They are irrelevant to Fallout. New Vegas proves that much. Tagaziel (call!) 23:20, January 9, 2011 (UTC)

i think if the BoS are going to die in the fallout series, you char will be the one doing it, like say you represent a small faction being violently dominated by the BoS because you aren't giving them your supplies, and you have to take them down to save your family w/e, in this scenario they aren't the "knights in shining power armor" they usually seem to be, and thus could be more of a bother than an ally. Sounga 00:20, January 11, 2011 (UTC)

Sounga, the original brotherhood (west brotherhood, california brotherhood,etc.) has never been the Knights in shining armor, maybe the midwest and capital wasteland's are, but the original BoS just care about technology, not about saving the little ponies in cutieville (lol), also tagaziel, i got a final question for you, if you were to choose the BoS destiny in some future fallout game, honestly, would yo do it? i mean knowing that there's a lot of fans that won't like that?. --That dude with an unoriginal user name 04:09, January 18, 2011 (UTC)

I would kill them off. Or change them so that they are no longer the original Brotherhood and kept the original name only for history's sake and brand recognition. Make them a research house allied with the NCR after their military might was broken by the war. Make splinter groups of the original Brotherhood that refuse to stand down and still wage war on the NCR in a vain attempt to make a difference. Allow the player to witness raids on slums where the NCR Rangers ruthlessly root out Brotherhood members in hiding and execute them without trial. Break their back, so that they never get up again and the name "Brotherhood" falls into obscurity, surviving only as suits and banners in the Shady Sands Museum of Republic History. Tagaziel (call!) 09:42, March 18, 2011 (UTC)

Tagaziel, while I concur with most of your lengthy review there is one point in which you are explicitly wrong: Ashur would not know what Lyons' mindset is. Henry Casdin describes Lyons as practically being two different people between the time of the Scourge and what he became in D.C. If anything, Ashur might be expecting someone more ruthless than the present Lyons.--OvaltinePatrol 16:57, March 17, 2011 (UTC)

This further reinforces my point. If Ashur knows the tactics of a ruthless Lyons and prepares for the worst, then defeating a timid Lyons will be that much easier, especially considering the fact that the forces Owyn commands are far less experienced and trained than the one that scoured Pittsburgh. Tagaziel (call!) 09:42, March 18, 2011 (UTC)
Reasonable conclusion, just wanted it to come from the correct premise.--OvaltinePatrol 16:58, March 18, 2011 (UTC)

Good lord Tagaziel, talk about a self righteous babbling Fallout purist! What on earth are you getting so het up about? Half of what you say is 100% spot on story wise but, for the most part, the rest is just unsubstantiated diatribe. To say that the BoS has no means available to them to create new weaponry etc is just an example. Let's not forget that all 'tech' stemmed, and was ultimately developed, from some neanderthal accidentally banging his own head with a rock (or some such event) and thinking - durr? Given the vast knowledge the BoS have in the form of many years gathering old texts I'm sure they've figured out that you only need a crude machine in order to utilize it to make a better machine. It's called progressive innovation. Aside from all this factual purist Fallout guff, where's your sense of romance anyway? These guy's obviously like the BoS (I did too, although only in Fallout 3) and I for one think their ideas for a resurgence of the BoS is quite refreshing. If you don't like the idea then is there really any need for you to reply so vehemently? I'd sooner you just ignore posts that don't float your boat. These guys have just as much right to thier imaginations as you or I. Why am I bothering to reply? Because I was quite enjoying the read until you came along and completely and utterly unnecessarily flamed it. (P3dantic) 22:21, March 17, 2011 (UTC)

Here's something you don't get: if they post their ideas publicly, on a freely accessible website, then they automatically agree to have their ideas dissected, hammered, pulled apart and quartered by anyone. The primary reason I posted such a critique is because their ideas are both nonsensical AND uncreative. Regurgigating old factions and heroes ad infinitum is pointless and leads to stagnation. What's wrong with creative and interesting new factions, eh?
That said, prove that the Brotherhood has any industrial capacity, the ability to mass produce weapons, ammunition, armour and tools for an army. Point out where is their agriculture able to supply a proper military. Show me where is the popular support and their technicians ready to join their cause. Otherwise, you're just advocating destruction of logic in the franchise. Tagaziel (call!) 09:42, March 18, 2011 (UTC)

quite frankly having the BoS die would be terrible as they change so drammatically in fallout 3, maybe some of the western sects could be destroyed but the new eastern Bos have changed so much that they can survive better in the wasteland.

the BoS could very easliy start up some factories considering they are able to rebuild an extremely complicated and experimental super robot, and factories are still based on the same concept of the industrial age, the Brotherhood know about power and robotics etc and that plus a bit of cleaning should make some of the factories reusable, tbh i think that tagaziel is downgrading the ability of mankind a little bit too much, as has been stated before mankind has the ability to adapt its surrondings to better itself, a civil war between the differant sects of the BoS is very plausable especially with the DC BoS acting up. if the FotA joined forces with the western BoS then all their flaws will be elimianted, the BoS doesn't choose to help the peoples of the wasteland or help to re-establish food/water supplies for everyone but the Followers do, the FotA don't have the military or leadership capabilities to make as much of an influence as they could, this is the main reason why they are only minor factions in NV, these two factions are opposites of each other and so could ying yang together to complete a perfect faction that could dominate the wasteland, the DC BoS is basically this.

tagaziel chill out all you do is complain and deny people the right to have an opinion even when their opinions have some matter of truth to them --Mgriller 03:00, March 18, 2011 (UTC)

I don't deny them the right to have opinions. I simply point out the (often numerous) flaws and errors in their reasoning. Then they either wise up and fix them or start attacking me if they cannot.
That said, as I wrote above, Lyons is an incompetent, impotent leader with no vision and absolutely no plan for long term survival of the Brotherhood. He doesn't actively work to win the favour of the locals, doesn't address real threats, such as raiders, slavers or Talon company, focusing on chasing ghosts in city ruins and attacking old foes. Keep in mind that he isn't even doing a good jub hunting mutants and securing the immediate area around the Pentagon, as there are supermutant camps across the caravan route to Rivet City, a couple of clicks from the Pentagon and a raider camp a short walk north, under the Arlington Bridge. He is a fool and his foolishness will be the gravestone of the DC chapter.
You are also forgetting the two hundred years, two centuries, that passed since the factories stopped in 2077. Two centuries without maintenance, without changing spare parts, two centuries of exposure to elements, looters and general neglect. The factories are in no shape to be restarted - anyone wanting to do so would have to rebuild the machines from scratch or have a hefty supply of spare parts available. The Brotherhood has no such ability - they strip and hoard technology instead of creating new one. Please read up on engineering and machine maintenance before claiming that "a bit of cleaning" would make 200 year old neglected factories reusable.
It's also wishful thinking that the Followers would join the Brotherhood or that the Brotherhood would join the Followers. Your reasoning betrays a total lack of understanding of the Followers beliefs or the Brotherhood dogma. Please enlighten yourself before posting factually incorrect claims. Tagaziel (call!) 09:42, March 18, 2011 (UTC)

I understand your point Tagaziel, HOWEVER, didnt the Pitt raiders, a band of violent, psychotic, low tech COMPLETELY uneducated savages manage to utilize some of the Pitts manufacturing abilities. Now even if its just 1/5th of industrail power awakened, a band of fucking raiders, still managed to do it.

Now imagine what the Brotherhood can do, a group of educated and advanced individuals can do.

And yes Bethadsta's writing may suck but the story and writing in the Pitt ( IMO) was solid.

And yes, The Brotherhood is fucked unless they change. I can imagine chapters deserting the Brotherhood and becoming a new group. 17:27, March 18, 2011 (UTC) Sec 19

Man Tagaziel why can't you give you opinion without being a total jerk I mean you made some good points and seem like a smart guy but in the end no one cares if your a total ass about it. --Ramallah

There is a working fabric in FNV called new vegas steel, after 203 years of being there and it works just like new, fallout is a mock franchise, nor serious neither realistic, it mocks the 40's-70's life style and nuclear paranoia if the NCR could grow so big relaying on sheer numbers the BoS can relay on effectiveness per unit and the fact that MOST of the fallout fans like them. --That dude with an unoriginal user name 23:03, April 15, 2011 (UTC)