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Talk:Brotherhood of Steel

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Recent edits

The recent edits have introduced a couple of points of contention. I've reverted these, after twice reviewing the content and trying to depict it in an encyclopedic manner, only to see those reversed. Now:

  • The insistence on claiming that the soldiers rebelled because human experimentation was an offense to its honor. This claim isn't based on anything, save what I presume is the editor's own status as a soldier or sympathizer of the United States Army. I can respect that. The problem is that the Fallout U.S. Army is not our U.S. Army, in the same way the Wehrmacht isn't the Bundeswehr, despite both being German military. To claim that honor caused the soldiers to rebel, rather than the simple fact that their brothers in arms were used as guinea pigs, ignores the following:
    • The annexation of Canada and crimes against Canadians was carried out by regular Army units. Not by the Enclave (which didn't exist at this point as a formal organization, but a coterie of the rich and powerful controlling the American state as a de facto fascist dictatorship). It wasn't honorable, but the Army carried out its orders. Up to and including executing unarmed prisoners on national TV, without trial.
    • Same goes for deploying regular Army units against American citizens. The incident in Boston was far from an isolated one.
    • Finally, the whole situation at Mariposa: A rogue military unit begins murdering civilians in cold blood, then promptly rebel against the civilian and military authorities of the United States. That pretty much contradicts every single of U.S. Army values.

Second, the claim that only the Mojave Brotherhood changed its doctrine, which really doesn't hold water:

  • The Mojave chapter is young, twenty or so years old at most (given that Veronica accompanied Elijah out West and you don't do that as a wee kid), and is a solid adherent to the core doctrine.
  • It is treated as representative of the Brotherhood in general by every single NPC in the game. House makes it plain in describing the Brotherhood's general attitude, without narrowing it down to the Mojave.
  • The Brotherhood War continues in the West between the Republic and the Brotherhood. If the Brotherhood remained a major research and development house outside of wasteland politics, this fact would make no sense in the context of Fallout 2 and subsequent developments.

Now, the Codex:

  • Whatever alterations Maxson made after his rise to power are immaterial to events that precede it (the events in the Mojave predate it by at least two years) or the moribund direction of the West in general. As such, noting that Maxson made this and that alteration that directly affects his forces' conduct in the East is fine. Backdating that to before Arthur was even born is... Well, crazy.

Feel free to respond, preferably with citations to back your claims. :) Tagaziel (talk) 14:29, 26 October 2016 (UTC)

Reply to Recent edits

"Whatever alterations Maxson made after his rise to power"

You are either blind or simply deleted my edits without even looking at them. My reference was from BEFORE Maxon's rise to power, not after. It's from Fallout 3: Maxon was a preteen in that game, thus proving that Elder Elijah made the changes to the Codex in Fallout New Vegas. Maxon restored the Codex after his rise to power. As for Mariposa, everything there is self evident, unless you want to say the soldiers went insane for no reason at all. Please restore the references, and next time I expect you to OBSERVE what was written before simply deleting it.—Preceding comment was unsigned. Please sign your posts with ~~~~!

I did examine your reference and found that it does not prove what you claim it does. I actually spent about an hour in total looking up the references and sources to verify your claim. However, found nothing to suggest that Elijah altered the Codex, at all. Here's what Arthur says:
The Brothers and Elder Lyons are excellent teachers, but I get nervous about the protocols. The codex says that outsiders are not to be trusted. Shield yourself from those not bound to you by steel, for they are the blind. Aid them when you can, but lose not sight of yourself, it says.
I've bolded the parts that you have ignored. The Codex clearly forbids trusting outsiders and mandates isolationism. Furthermore, you are claiming that Aid them when you can mandates some kind of charity or openness. In reality, it cannot be separated from the conditional in the second half of the sentence: lose not sight of yourself. In other words, aiding outsiders is only permissible if it doesn't compromise the goals of the Brotherhood. Subsequent quotes from the Codex make it plain:
The Codex says: "Fear those who do not pledge to the Brotherhood for though their eyes may be opened through service, they are now blind"
I certainly understand where you're coming from. I believe you are claiming that this quote from McNamara is proof that Elijah altered the Codex.
We do not help them, or let them in. We keep knowledge they must never have.
It is perfectly in-line with Maxson's statements. McNamara is simply stating, flatly, the meaning of the passage (which is also colored by his age and indoctrination). As does Hardin.
Ultimately, what you claim is in the category of extraordinary claims and requires extraordinary evidence, direct proof that Elijah tampered with the Codex - and one that explain how the Outcasts could have formed if the Codex wasn't full of close-minded bullshit, how Veronica (a scholar) doesn't mention alterations - just that she would be caught if she tampered with it - and how the entire chapter would just accept Elijah rewriting their most sacred text, particularly Hardin, who was never fond of him.
Finally, Mariposa. It's a long stretch to assume that the soldiers started holding kangaroo courts and murdering civilians under their care because they found it an affront to their honor. Maxson carrying out systematic executions of people entrusted to his care is about as dishonorable as you can get. In fact, the Fallout Bible is a lot clearer on the point:
Captain Roger Maxson and his men discover that the scientists at Mariposa have been using "military volunteers" (military prisoners who didn't have their brains scooped for use in Brain Bots) as test subjects in their experiments. Morale in the base breaks down, and Maxson executes Anderson, the chief scientist. Not long after this (and in light of the breakdown of the mental breakdown of Colonel Spindel stationed at the base), Maxson's men turn to him for leadership. He shrugs and says "we should quit."
It establishes a cause and effect here. Soldiers at the base discover their brothers in arms are guinea pigs, causing the morale to break down. No mention of honor or finding general experimentation on human beings reprehensible (for context, this is a nation that established concentration camps for Chinese and Chinese-Americans). Again, please provide references. I've explained the reasoning twice over. Feel free to request comment from other users.
PS: The Pro badge is actually related to my account having a free subscription as a result of contributions. Tagaziel (talk) 22:57, 27 October 2016 (UTC)

"Furthermore, you are claiming that Aid them when you can mandates some kind of charity or openness."

The Mojave Codex says "do not help them" which is a clear contradiction. Saying it isn't a contradiction is a lie, and assuming that such contradiction would stand in a memorized codex followed by hundreds of intelligent people is the real extraordinary claim here.

"It establishes a cause and effect here. Soldiers at the base discover their brothers in arms are guinea pigs"

Maxon's diary doesn't mention any such thing, and the Fallout Bible is known to contradict many points in Fallout lore and is not specifically canon.—Preceding comment was unsigned. Please sign your posts with ~~~~!

It isn't a contradiction, as McNamara is not quoting the Codex word-for-word, but stating the intended meaning (according to the current interpretation by the West). Arthur is quoting it word for word. You still haven't addressed the fact that aid to outsiders is only permissible in cases when it doesn't compromise the Brotherhood's goals. In conjunction with the mandate to fear the outsider (mentioned above), it's pretty clear that the West doesn't help because aiding outsiders would be violating the principle of isolationism.
And, again, if the Codex said what you say it does, how would the Brotherhood Outcasts ever form?
Lastly, the diary doesn't mention it being offensive to honor (it does mention kangaroo courts, pardon, interrogations, and murdering civilians in cold blood, however). The Bible remains canon, as Bethesda did not magically remove the development process of Fallout and Fallout 2 from existence. It's curious how the Bible only ever becomes "non-canon" when it doesn't fit someone's argument. Tagaziel (talk) 15:44, 28 October 2016 (UTC)

"It isn't a contradiction, as McNamara is not quoting the Codex word-for-word, but stating the intended meaning" - Bull. The codex says: "Aid them when you can" in Fallout 3, according to Arthur Maxon. That's not open to an interpretation any more than the right to bear arms.

"And, again, if the Codex said what you say it does, how would the Brotherhood Outcasts ever form?" - The same way that Elder Lyons formed his chapter: ignoring the codex. Elder Elijah would not have any qualms about that.

"Lastly, the diary doesn't mention it being offensive to honor (it does mention kangaroo courts, pardon, interrogations, and murdering civilians in cold blood, however)" - None of which is considered dishonorable behavior by Pre-War America, later known as the Enclave.

"The Bible remains canon, as Bethesda did not magically remove the development process of Fallout and Fallout 2 from existence." - Chris Avellone said it's not. He was a major developer for Fallout 2.—Preceding comment was unsigned. Please sign your posts with ~~~~!

Both this and the Second Amendment are open to interpretation. Again, if you want to argue, then please make sure that you are quoting the entire passage, rather than cherry picking fragments that happen to support your notion. Here's the entire passage:
Shield yourself from those not bound to you by steel, for they are the blind. Aid them when you can, but lose not sight of yourself.
The meaning is quite different when you don't ignore the context. First, the Codex establishes that outsiders (i.e. non-members) are untrustworthy, blind, and the Brotherhood has to shield themselves from them (Shield yourself from those not bound to you by steel, for they are the blind). It allows for aid to be given (Aid them when you can), but, and here's the part you continuously ignore, such aid is only permitted in situations where it doesn't undermine the Brotherhood's goals.
It's open to interpretation (as a law grad, this is a familiar legislative instrument) and relies on how the Elder interprets it. Lyons interprets the passage to permit aid, the West doesn't.
As for the Second Amendment, I assume you're also ignoring the well-maintained militia part of the Constitution, because it doesn't support your argument, yes?
Similarly, your idea that both Lyons and the Outcasts ignored the Codex is self-contradicting. You claim that the Codex somehow mandates charity, and that Lyons respects the Codex and drills it into Arthur Maxson, except he ignored the Codex to go native, and then the Outcasts also ignored the Codex. So, does the Codex support Lyons' position? Outcasts'? Whatever fits your argument at the time?
Finally (ignoring the claim that the entire pre-War America and military was the Enclave, which it most certainly wasn't; the Enclave was the small group of rich and powerful bastards who exploited the country for their own, petty ends), your argument defeats itself. You claim the garrison at Mariposa rebelled because it found human experimentation dishonorable, but at the same time state that it was inherently dishonorable, so kangaroo courts and murdering civilians were all perfectly acceptable. So tell me, if they were honorable enough to find human experimentation distastesful in general, why did they murder civilians in cold blood? And if they were dishonorable enough to find such murder acceptable, why would human experimentation be considered dishonorable?
As such, rather than make baseless claims about honor, the article states what is known: The soldiers rebelled after they realized who was being experimented on: Their own brothers in arms.
Last: Chris Avellone's opinion is not relevant, as he made that remark after he ceased to have an influence on Fallout Lore. Furthermore, his remarks do not magically alter past events and erase design documents from existence, even if he retained the right to say what's canon and what's not. If you look at Fallout canon, there are several citations from Bethesda proving that they used and include the Bible as part of their setting. Tagaziel (talk) 07:25, 31 October 2016 (UTC)

"Both this and the Second Amendment are open to interpretation" - In your imagination. I have the right to bear arms.

"Again, if you want to argue, then please make sure that you are quoting the entire passage, rather than cherry picking fragments that happen to support your notion." - I quoted the entire passage in my original reference. You are calling me a cherry picker when no cherries have been picked. Is the Brotherhood commanded to aid or no? As a yes or no question, the answer is "yes". Everything else is extraneous: attempting to ignore a mandate with another mandate is not valid logic.

"Similarly, your idea that both Lyons and the Outcasts ignored the Codex is self-contradicting. You claim that the Codex somehow mandates charity, and that Lyons respects the Codex and drills it into Arthur Maxson, except he ignored the Codex to go native, and then the Outcasts also ignored the Codex." - Lyons' abandonment of the Codex is confirmed by Arthur Maxon as well as the West Coast Brotherhood cutting off Lyon's division. Canon fact.

"So, does the Codex support Lyons' position? Outcasts'?" - BOTH. Lyons ignored "do not lose sight of yourself" and the Outcasts ignored "Aid them when you can". Neither command overrides the other. Arthur Maxon notably does both as High Elder: he searches for advanced technology and destroys the raiders, deathclaws, mirelurks, and ferals that threaten the Commonwealth, at no benefit to himself or the Brotherhood.

"Finally (ignoring the claim that the entire pre-War America and military was the Enclave, which it most certainly wasn't; the Enclave was the small group of rich and powerful bastards who exploited the country for their own, petty ends)" - Like the President, the Secret Service, and the Armed Forces. Everything they did was done through Vault-Tec and West-Tek, and they are the same guys who annexed Canada and killed insurgents on live television. America is America, as Nazi Germany was Nazi Germany.

"You claim the garrison at Mariposa rebelled because it found human experimentation dishonorable, but at the same time state that it was inherently dishonorable, so kangaroo courts and murdering civilians were all perfectly acceptable. So tell me, if they were honorable enough to find human experimentation distastesful in general, why did they murder civilians in cold blood? And if they were dishonorable enough to find such murder acceptable, why would human experimentation be considered dishonorable?" - Looking at any immoral regime in history, I don't need to answer that. Cognitive dissonance is typical.

"Last: Chris Avellone's opinion is not relevant" - Yay for me: He's the bloke who wrote the Fallout Bible. Since his opinion is irrelevant, so his is book.—Preceding comment was unsigned. Please sign your posts with ~~~~!

Hello, hope you two don't mind, but I'd like to interject on a few points.
2. ;p Everyone has the right to bear arms, to defend themselves, protect their property, and most importantly their rights.
1. When the Brotherhood destroys pockets of mutants and worse they do benefit. Not only do they gain valuable combat experience, but they reduce the threat of an area and gain on the public relation with outside parties.
3. Not everything the government did was through Vault-Tec and West-Tek. The former was a monstrous abomination whose origins may in fact be with the conspiracy. However the latter was a HUGE formerly independent enterprise that was nationalized when they became too vital and successful. I'd bet real Caps that forced nationalization was no where near as uncommon as you'd think. After all, both the Fallout USA and Germany were socialist.
4. It's typical because if they don't brainwash effectively they'd have to deal with the resistance.
5. No, Bethesda used the Fallout Bible to create their lore. However since Mr. Avellone is no longer involved within the creation of the lore his opinions are just that, opinions.
--Ant2242 (talk) 04:59, 2 November 2016 (UTC)

I find it amusing that you think the Second Amendment is not open to interpretation, or rather, that there's only one valid interpretation and you'll probably murder people to make it plain. As it stands, the definition of Second Amendment you two use is not in the Constitution, but that's beside the point.

Similarly, trying to frame the Codex as offering a dichotomy is false, because it doesn't offer a dichotomy. The provision is clear: Aid people if it doesn't compromise the Brotherhood's goals. It's not a yes or no question, it's a classic conditional. You don't seem to grasp the punctuation there. There's no full stop there, but a comma. The latter is the condition for the former.

Finally, you dodge the question about the honorability of killer rampages. So no, that stays off the article, because there's no way, in hell, that it can be. And, again, cherry picking: Chris Avellone's opinion on the matter is not relevant, as he published it well after he had any say in the matter. The only people who can dismiss the Bible are working at Bethesda Game Studios and they never moved at it, not once.

Last, Anthony, Nazi Germany and Fallout America weren't socialist states. They were both fascist states. National socialism isn't socialism, not by a long shot. Do you hold that North Korea is Democratic? Tagaziel (talk) 19:07, 2 November 2016 (UTC)

"I find it amusing that you think the Second Amendment is not open to interpretation, or rather, that there's only one valid interpretation and you'll probably murder people to make it plain." - That's an Ad Hominem argument, a well known logical fallacy, and you know it. Unless you have a real argument, don't bother trying to debate.

"As it stands, the definition of Second Amendment you two use is not in the Constitution" - The right to bear arms is the right to carry weapons. Bear = Carry. Arms = Weapons. There isn't any other interpretation, unless you just really stink at learning English and think it has something to do with omnivores of the family Ursidae.

"The provision is clear: Aid people if it doesn't compromise the Brotherhood's goals. It's not a yes or no question, it's a classic conditional." - You finally admitted that they are NOT ordered to avoid helping wastelanders, which is what you were saying before. Bravo.

"Finally, you dodge the question about the honorability of killer rampages. So no, that stays off the article, because there's no way, in hell, that it can be." - No it doesn't. Every military atrocity in the world that was commonly supported was believed to be honorable, especially when propaganda was involved. They didn't go killing the scientists because they wanted to be dishonored. Rather, because they were highly upset by the FEV experimentation at Mariposa. That is implicitly obvious, and you have made no effective argument denying it.

"Chris Avellone's opinion on the matter is not relevant, as he published it well after he had any say in the matter." - That makes his own written book doubly unimportant. It is not a resource for canonical information in the Fallout Universe because it was written *by Chris Avellone,* you putz.

"Last, Anthony, Nazi Germany and Fallout America weren't socialist states. They were both fascist states." - Exactly: count how many Nazi soldiers REALLY thought they were doing the right thing and you will find that most of them did. "Honor" according to their indoctrination by the state. Notice how long it took Maxon to believe that the Scientists were working for the state and how much both the Enclave and Brotherhood (Both being offshoots of Pre-War America) mutually hate mutants: he likely couldn't believe that his troops were being made into monsters by their own government.—Preceding comment was unsigned. Please sign your posts with ~~~~!

1. Please sign your posts --~~~~.
2. The Fallout Bible is cannon unless a game or Bethesda herself contradicts it.
3. Let's refrain from calling each other names... except for me; I choose to be called Your Highness. ;p--Ant2242 (talk) 02:25, 3 November 2016 (UTC)

I guess I will weigh in my opinions, too:

  • Codex:
  1. If the Codex was change by Elder Elijah, than you will need a source. I am not going to argue the validity of that claim. I am not going to argue semantics. This edit will be justified by either a game resource reference, or through an independent source created by a peer-reviewed in-depth analysis of the theories involved.
  2. In regards to the Brotherhood's isolationism, there are exceptions to every rule, as dictated by the chapter Elders. You and others can interpret the passages in a myriad of ways, but it all boils down to that simple fact, with precedents established in all games where the PC has personal dealings with the Brotherhood of Steel and their Elders.
  • Mariposa:
  1. All of you are wrong on this point. Eisegesis has absolutely no place on this wiki, and that is exactly what is being seen here. The events that lead up to Maxson and the men under his command defecting from the United States military remnants, are very well documented, and everything other than the sourced facts is speculation. Assume the minds of Maxson and his men all you like... that will not make you right on this wiki, however.
  • Fallout Bible:
  1. As much as it pains me to say this, the Fallout Bible is no longer canonical - it is semi-canonical, at best, and as such, cannot be used as source material by itself. While Bethesda have used the Bible as reference material and as inspiration, those acts do not inherently give full credence onto the reference material. Now, if Bethesda ever comes out and declares that the Fallout Bible is still largely canonical, then our stance will change on this matter. If it gets to the point where the Fallout Bible reaches a certain threshold of truth, to the point where most of the information within can be verified, then it can become independently verified as canonical.

GarouxBloodline 03:10, 3 November 2016 (UTC)

"If the Codex was change by Elder Elijah, than you will need a source." - I already provided a source, in-dialogue: a directly contradictory passage in the Codex used by the Mojave branch in Fallout NV, as opposed to Elder Lyons' chapter in Fallout 3. There's also the statement by Matthew in Fallout 2:

'At one time we were the sole bastions of technology left on the planet. We set ourselves up as what could best be called 'technology police.' We hoarded the old knowledge and only doled it out in small parcels. Of course, it was only to those who we felt deserved it and had the wisdom to properly use it.' - Matthew

By contrast,"We keep knowledge they must never have" is stated by McNamara, which means the Mojave branch is openly directed to never give out tech under ANY circumstances. Fallout lore often has incidents like this, relying on the player to interpret the information at hand. There are examples of this sort of thing in much of the series lore.

"All of you are wrong on this point. Eisegesis has absolutely no place on this wiki, and that is exactly what is being seen here. The events that lead up to Maxson and the men under his command defecting from the United States military remnants, are very well documented, and everything other than the sourced facts is speculation." - Feel free to try and come up with a reason for the sudden morale drop that ISN'T directly related to the FEV testing, as documented.

"As much as it pains me to say this, the Fallout Bible is no longer canonical - it is semi-canonical, at best, and as such, cannot be used as source material by itself. While Bethesda have used the Bible as reference material and as inspiration, those acts do not inherently give full credence onto the reference material." - Thank you.

174.110.4.214 06:50, 3 November 2016 (UTC)

You've made it plain that you don't care about other people's lives, only the gun matters, so debating is pointless. Suffice to say, the volumes of scholarship and discussion of the Second completely disprove the notion of it being an absolute. And while we're at it, you again ignore the point about a "well-regulated militia" being the condition for bearing arms. Ever since the United States gained a standing army, that provision would've been considered irrelevant, but the United States is in love with guns.
Next: I never said they are ordered to avoid aiding wastelanders. I specifically said that the Codex mandates isolationism (you know, the whole "fear the outsiders, for they are blind" thing) and it only permits aid under very specific conditions: That such aid doesn't compromise the Brotherhood's mission and goals.
Bonus points: As repeatedly described, Maxson and McNamara/Hardin aren't contradicting each other. Maxson is quoting the passage word for word, McNamara and Hardin clearly show the meaning of the passage. It's the difference between quoting a Bible passage and saying "Jesus doesn't want you to be an asshole." Furthermore, what Matt said 34 years earlier (or 40) has zero bearing on latter day Brotherhood.
Atrocities: The fact that you contort yourself and your argument into ever more twisted configurations clearly shows that any claims of honor need to be kept off the article, as they would be misleading and baseless.
Chris Avellone: The Fallout Bible is canon, as it was an official publication released on official Black Isle channels, by a Black Isle employee working on Van Buren. It's not, as some insist, a private release. However, any opinions of Chris Avellone published after he left Black Isle, Obsidian, or outside the work he and Obsidian did for Bethesda, are opinions. Particularly any rulings as to canonicity. Again, this is not a simplistic, false dichotomy. All depends on the context and content of his writing.
Oh, Maxson knew they were working under a government contract, that's why he was there in the first place. What he didn't believe was that their experimentation was sanctioned. Shame it took him shooting the entire science staff of Mariposa to get to the realization that maybe the government was corrupt.
As for Leon's claim about the Bible: He's incorrect. Leon, please provide proof - a statement from Bethesda - that proves that the Bible is no longer canon or that the developer materials within were written out of existence. There's no reason to assume that the Bible suddenly stopped being a canonical source. Are Fallout and Fallout 2 semi-canon too? Tagaziel (talk) 07:14, 3 November 2016 (UTC)

(In response to the anon)

  1. That has been made clear. That is not what I asked you, however; I am looking for the source that backs up your claim that Elder Elijah, specifically, tampered with the Codex.
  2. Did you ask me to debunk your speculation to create speculation of my own? No thank you. Once again, I suggest that you leave eisegesis off of this wiki.
  3. I do want to clarify, though, that the Fallout Bible can still be used as reference material. It just has to be done carefully, since it's pretty easy to focus on additions that were never canonical, even back when Interplay still owned the I.P., and people were regularly correcting MCA on his own lore interpretations. GarouxBloodline 13:17, 3 November 2016 (UTC)

To Tagaziel:

"You've made it plain that you don't care about other people's lives, only the gun matters, so debating is pointless." - I care about my life, and the lives of my family and friends: you have no right to insult me in that was. You also know this is neither the time, nor the place, nor a valid reason to insult my character.

"I never said they are ordered to avoid aiding wastelanders. I specifically said that the Codex mandates isolationism" - I did not dispute that anywhere, neither in my original edit nor here.

"and it only permits aid under very specific conditions" - www.youtube.com/watch?v=pUpsSSDmBHk <- Like sending out their Paladins, Power Armor and Vertibirds to kill Deathclaws, Raiders, Gunners, Ferals, and so on... for what reason? Getting support from the Minutemen to destroy the Institute? To get tech from a few brahmin herders or farmers? Get real. It says "Aid them when you can", not "don't ever give them the time of day unless they build us a fusion reactor and swear by our Codex".

"As repeatedly described, Maxson and McNamara/Hardin aren't contradicting each other." - Yes they are. One says "aid when you can" the other says "do not aid, ever". The difference is not that hard to understand.

"The fact that you contort yourself and your argument into ever more twisted configurations clearly shows that any claims of honor need to be kept off the article" - Look up "cognitive dissonance", "Auschwitz", and a few things about racist and fascist mentality in general: they follow the patterns I described to the letter.

"Oh, Maxson knew they were working under a government contract, that's why he was there in the first place." - 'I killed a man today. I was interrogating Chief Scientist Anderson and he was giving me the full details of their inhuman experiments. He said his orders came from the Gov't., but I didn't buy it.' - Captain Roger Maxon, Oct.13 2077.

To GarouxBloodline:

"That has been made clear. That is not what I asked you, however; I am looking for the source that backs up your claim that Elder Elijah, specifically, tampered with the Codex." - 'If he could have made the Brotherhood act like machines, ordering them around with a push of a button, he would have.' - Veronica Santangelo. There's also the fact that he was the Elder of the Mojave branch until Helios, and it's specifically *his* branch that operates on such a fanatical level of isolation. The Brotherhood in Fallout 1, 2, 3, and 4 has no such mandate, what with the trading in the Hub and slowly introducing more tech to the wasteland.

"Did you ask me to debunk your speculation to create speculation of my own? No thank you. Once again, I suggest that you leave eisegesis off of this wiki." - Eisegesis? Speculation? Do you know the meaning of those words? The FEV research was moved to Mariposa, and Mariposa rebelled afterwards by killing the scientists. Those scientists were working on the FEV: that information was all provided *directly* in The Glow (West-Tek research facility) through holotapes and the ZAX computer, and all information contradicting it is *exclusively* from the Fallout Bible (such as Robobrain research being the catalyst, when that is never implied in the game at all). There's no "speculation" here, the evidence is all very clear and definite.

174.110.4.214 23:28, 4 November 2016 (UTC)

Any person who claims that the Second Amendment is an absolute law does not deserve my respect. Any person who believes that they are entitled to owning a tool designed specifically to maim and kill are people who have severely fucked up priorities. Of course, I come from Europe, where we don't worship guns to the point that they feature in our Constitutions. But yes, this is beyond the scope.
Now, to the point. Whatever reforms Arthur introduced are utterly and completely irrelevant to pre-Arthurian Brotherhood doctrine.
Moreover, I've been explaining this point over and over again. There's nothing inherently contradictive between the writing in the Codex and the interpretation given by McNamara. If McNamara was quoting the Codex word-for-word, I would agree with you that it was a contradiction. But fact is, Arthur quotes a passage that clearly states that aid can only be given if the aid does not compromise the Brotherhood's operations. To McNamara, Hardin, and the entire Western Brotherhood, engaged in open war with the Republic (yes, still, despite their defeat in the War), any aid makes them vulnerable and compromises their mission.
The claim of honor is still completely baseless. The fact that you cannot provide a single shred of in-game evidence to corroborate your claims and instead use history as a crutch - history that doesn't actually support your claim, as concentration camp guards (be it NKVD, SS-Totenkopf, American GIs manning Japanese internment camps) weren't experiencing cognitive dissonance. To them, the inmates were subhumans. An internally consistent system of values lacking any dissonance.
Next, you are cherry picking again. Either respond to the entire argument, or don't bother replying.
I'll also reply to the points you raise in conversation with Leon.
Whatever the Brotherhood did in Fallout, Fallout 2, and Fallout 4 is completely irrelevant, as 1 and 2 predate the Brotherhood War and its reactionary doctrine, while 4 is set after Maxson instituted his reforms. New Vegas explicitly uses the Mojave Chapter to describe the general attitude of the Western Brotherhood, which is only corroborated by Fallout 3, where the Outcasts stand in for the West and Lyons explicitly describes how callous the Brotherhood policy became (not that it wasn't callous before, what with sending aspirants to die in the Glow or even considering a punitive expedition against the Hub because of the merchants' attempt to nick their stash of guns).
You have also failed to provide a single shred of evidence that the Brotherhood War, its reactionary policies, or the xenophobia were only limited to the Mojave chapter.
Last, Leon does know the meaning of the words he uses. You are insisting on adding a very specific claim to the wiki, a claim that's speculative in nature and not corroborated by any evidence. (also, no, the Bible doesn't cite robobrain research as the cause of the rebellion)
You are claiming that the soldiers rebelled because their honor was somehow offended, consistently ignoring the fact that these "honorable" soldiers started butchering civilians. Your claim lacks consistency and thus merit.
The only thing that has any basis in established lore is that the soldiers rebelled because their brothers in arms, military prisoners, were experimented upon. To claim that it was some general offense at the mere fact of human experimentation is baseless. Tagaziel (talk) 00:28, 5 November 2016 (UTC)

(To the anon)

  1. So you don't have proof, then, that Elijah actually tampered with the Codex. I'm glad that we have that established. And I want to be clear, here - until you find something much more substantial, as in something that does not involve self-verification, which is not even remotely acceptable for an encyclopedia of knowledge, then there is nothing further to discuss on this point aside from cross-analysis for the fun of it.
  2. These are my definitions - take them as you will:
    1. Speculation: The assumption that just because something is obvious to you, and possibly even others, means that it's true.
    2. Eisegesis: The projection of your own character and opinions onto a different thing - the thing almost always being another person.
    3. Both of these apply, because not only are you assuming the thoughts of Maxson and his men, based off of your own character projections, but you are also stating absolutes without any actual proof.

GarouxBloodline 00:45, 5 November 2016 (UTC)

To Tagaziel

"Any person who claims that the Second Amendment is an absolute law does not deserve my respect. Any person who believes that they are entitled to owning a tool designed specifically to maim and kill are people who have severely fucked up priorities." - Yes they do, simply because they are also human beings. If you have a problem with it, take it to Congress. Oh wait: you can't. You don't live here.

"There's nothing inherently contradictive between the writing in the Codex" - Repeated lies are still lies. Repetition of a lie does not make truth.

"Whatever the Brotherhood did in Fallout, Fallout 2, and Fallout 4 is completely irrelevant" - Another lie. What they do is directed by the Codex, so we must assume that the Codex has been tampered with for such a direct counter-command to exist in NV. Otherwise, NV must take place in another universe.

"also, no, the Bible doesn't cite robobrain research as the cause of the rebellion" - It does.

"You are claiming that the soldiers rebelled because their honor was somehow offended, consistently ignoring the fact that these "honorable" soldiers started butchering civilians." - As did all of Europe as little as a few hundred years ago. Honor and morality are not even nearly the same thing.

"The only thing that has any basis in established lore is that the soldiers rebelled because their brothers in arms, military prisoners, were experimented upon." - That's right, and members of the military also directly objected to human testing: "Major Barnett has ordered transfer of all FEV research to the Mariposa Military Base. He plans to continue the project experiments on volunteer subjects. I am against this, and would like it noted here that research on human subjects is not recommended by myself or my staff." - FEV experiment disk at West-Tek research facility.

To GarouxBloodline

"So you don't have proof, then, that Elijah actually tampered with the Codex. I'm glad that we have that established." - How on earth were you able to finish any quest in Fallout without having the capacity for inductive reasoning? With that logic, damn near every single Holodisk in Fallout 1 can't be used as canon information.

"Both of these apply, because not only are you assuming the thoughts of Maxson and his men" - I am not: the reasons are very well established in his personal Diary holodisk. Saying otherwise requires an impressive level of cognitive dissonance.

174.110.4.214 06:36, 7 November 2016 (UTC)

I decide who deserves my respect. Gun nuts don't get it.
On the other points, you have yet to provide any kind of source that the Codex was tampered with by Elijah (and that somehow escaped the notice of Hardin, who disliked Elijah from the get go) or that the Brotherhood are inhuman machines that operate on the Codex as some sort of programming command.
See, what the Brotherhood did at other times before and New Vegas is irrelevant, because circumstances, people, and doctrines change. You seem to labor under the assumption that the interpretation remained constant over 210 years since the Brotherhood's founding, which is explicitly not the case. The Codex (which is not dated and might not even be authored in Roger Maxson's time or that of his grandchil, John Maxson; there's certainly no reference to it in Fallout 1 or 2) is essentially the Holy Bible of the Brotherhood. I assume you are aware of the fact that such holy texts were the cause for some of the biggest sectarian conflicts in history, precisely because interpretations differ?
Hell, the passage that young Arthur quotes explicitly mandates isolationism, distrust, and fear of the outsider, and hinges any help conveyed to the outside on it not compromising the Brotherhood's mission, is entirely consistent with New Vegas and Fallout 3, as explained before. Even the reason for the Outcasts splitting off is Lyons flouting his objectives and refusing to excavate Fort Independence (which means that his obsessive 20 year campaign of chasing white whales through DC ruins compromised his chapter's mission). You cannot provide proof to the contrary; all you can offer is your own interpretation steeped in ignoring parts that don't fit. Like the conditional in the passage or every other quote that references the mandate to fear, distrust, and isolate the Brotherhood from the outside.
And no, it explicitly does not:

Captain Roger Maxson and his men discover that the scientists at Mariposa have been using "military volunteers" (military prisoners who didn't have their brains scooped for use in Brain Bots) as test subjects in their experiments. Morale in the base breaks down, and Maxson executes Anderson, the chief scientist. Not long after this (and in light of the breakdown of the mental breakdown of Colonel Spindel stationed at the base), Maxson's men turn to him for leadership. He shrugs and says "we should quit."

Fallout Bible 0
In case it's unclear, the sentence states that military "volunteers" were prisoners who weren't used as source of gray matter for roborains. It does not imply any sort of robobrain research going on at Mariposa at any point in time.
Going on, nobody said that honor and morality are the same thing. You're going off on an unrelated tangent here. Fact is, there is no source, whatsoever, implying that honor was involved in any way, shape, or form. You can't provide any source otherwise, trying to handwave the whole argument with unrelated facts from decades and now centuries past.
Last on my points: Please provide proof that the West-Tek research personnel were members of the military. The only person we know that was a member of the military was Anderson, and even then, it's from a second-hand source. West Tek records do not reference any military ranks; military supervision is also stated to have been brought in at a later date, rather than proceeding as such from the start (see West Tek).
Now, Garoux. Don't insult him when he plainly states the facts: You have not provided any source to back up your claims, particularly an explanation as to how Elijah could tamper with the Codex escaping the notice of conservative Edgar Hardin and not triggering an immediate removal from power (Elders were dismissed for far less, as explained by the Hidden Valley logs).
Last, I wonder what game you're playing, because Captain Maxson's diary doesn't explain why they did what they did, beyond a general statement of outrage at the experiments conducted by the science staff. It doesn't provide enough basis to claim that it was specifically an insult to their honor that caused them to go batshit, massacre the scientists, then desert their post, and commit treason by declaring secession. Yeah, I'm standing with Leon on that. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Your words are not extraordinary evidence. Tagaziel (talk) 09:25, 7 November 2016 (UTC)

"I decide who deserves my respect. Gun nuts don't get it." - You never considered the possibility that a gun owner could be anything other than a 'gun nut'? I'm not surprised, considering your apparent propensity to think in exactly one dimension. In fact, I don't own a gun at all, but I support the right to own and carry them.

"On the other points, you have yet to provide any kind of source that the Codex was tampered with by Elijah (and that somehow escaped the notice of Hardin, who disliked Elijah from the get go) or that the Brotherhood are inhuman machines that operate on the Codex as some sort of programming command." - Every single comment by Veronica Santangelo and the Elders, their behavior when Lyons abandoned parts of the Codex, the quest "I could make you Care" in Fallout NV as well as Initiate Cabbot's dialogue in Fallout 1... come on, man. You're arguing against the entire lore surrounding the Brotherhood of Steel.

"The Codex (which is not dated and might not even be authored in Roger Maxson's time or that of his grandchil, John Maxson; there's certainly no reference to it in Fallout 1 or 2) is essentially the Holy Bible of the Brotherhood. I assume you are aware of the fact that such holy texts were the cause for some of the biggest sectarian conflicts in history, precisely because interpretations differ?" - Unlike the Bible, the Codex was not written in Hebrew, then translated to Greek, then translated to Latin, and then translated to English. In Hebrew, there is only one interpretation, and all sectarian conflict revolves around the apocrypha and not the core text.

"the passage that young Arthur quotes explicitly mandates isolationism, distrust, and fear of the outsider" - As well as aiding them when possible. Everyone knows the Brotherhood is isolationist: isolation does NOT imply a total lack of help, especially when "aid them when you can" is written in plain English. Your inability to understand that is indicative of your own limited faculties of reason, and in no way affect the content of the Codex.

"Mariposa have been using "military volunteers" (military prisoners who didn't have their brains scooped for use in Brain Bots) as test subjects in their experiments." - The Fallout Bible isn't canon, and that statement is a brilliant example of why. If the soldiers are okay with troops becoming Brain Bots, they'd be okay with everything else, too. They weren't: they *killed* the scientists involved without any due process.

"Please provide proof that the West-Tek research personnel were members of the military. The only person we know that was a member of the military was Anderson, and even then, it's from a second-hand source. West Tek records do not reference any military ranks; military supervision is also stated to have been brought in at a later date" - The whole thing began as the Pan-Immunity Virion Project, which was made to counter an expected Chinese attack using bio-genetic weapons: the military was definitely involved from day one. They moved the research into a hidden bunker later.

"Don't insult him when he plainly states the facts: You have not provided any source to back up your claims, particularly an explanation as to how Elijah could tamper with the Codex escaping the notice of conservative Edgar Hardin and not triggering an immediate removal from power" - NCR Brotherhood War, and the general state of Wasteland communications, as well as the fact that the Brotherhood of Steel are stated repeatedly by both Doctor House in Fallout NV, and Brotherhood members as early as Fallout 1, to not be completely knowledgeable about their history, to the point of not even knowing what Roger Maxon did. Or did you somehow forget all that lore?

"Last, I wonder what game you're playing, because Captain Maxson's diary doesn't explain why they did what they did, beyond a general statement of outrage at the experiments conducted by the science staff. It doesn't provide enough basis to claim that it was specifically an insult to their honor" - All of their outrage is directly related to the FEV experimentation, because humans were the test subjects. I'm honestly beginning to think you are some sort of sociopath: how can you *not* understand their basic motivations? FEV turns basically anything it touches into monsters, and being the defenders of such a thing would directly and universally insult honor customs common everywhere from Africa to Japan and everywhere in-between. But you don't understand that, do you?

174.110.4.214 02:49, 8 November 2016 (UTC)

"Every single comment by Veronica Santangelo and the Elders, their behavior when Lyons abandoned parts of the Codex, the quest "I could make you Care" in Fallout NV as well as Initiate Cabbot's dialogue in Fallout 1... come on, man. You're arguing against the entire lore surrounding the Brotherhood of Steel."
None of these events, behaviors, and dialogue indicates that the Codex was tampered with. Only interpreted differently over time.
"As well as aiding them when possible. Everyone knows the Brotherhood is isolationist: isolation does NOT imply a total lack of help, especially when "aid them when you can" is written in plain English. Your inability to understand that is indicative of your own limited faculties of reason, and in no way affect the content of the Codex."
The Western Brotherhood have interpreted the "aid them when you can" with both the sale of weapons (FO1) and technology (FO2 Vault 13) and the collection and preservation of munitions (they aren't collecting prosthetic organs).
"The Fallout Bible isn't canon, and that statement is a brilliant example of why. If the soldiers are okay with troops becoming Brain Bots, they'd be okay with everything else, too. They weren't: they *killed* the scientists involved without any due process."
The Fallout Bible is semi-cannon, a secondary source. Something that is considered correct unless a game contradicts it.
"The whole thing began as the Pan-Immunity Virion Project, which was made to counter an expected Chinese attack using bio-genetic weapons: the military was definitely involved from day one. They moved the research into a hidden bunker later."
Yes, it began that way, however the company itself was only (de facto) nationalized on January 6, 2076. This also doesn't mean that the employees became ranked military scientists.
"NCR Brotherhood War, and the general state of Wasteland communications, as well as the fact that the Brotherhood of Steel are stated repeatedly by both Doctor House in Fallout NV, and Brotherhood members as early as Fallout 1, to not be completely knowledgeable about their history, to the point of not even knowing what Roger Maxon did. Or did you somehow forget all that lore?"
This is deductive reasoning. It's not necessarily out of the realm of possibilities, however there is no concrete proof of this.
"All of their outrage is directly related to the FEV experimentation, because humans were the test subjects. I'm honestly beginning to think you are some sort of sociopath: how can you *not* understand their basic motivations? FEV turns basically anything it touches into monsters, and being the defenders of such a thing would directly and universally insult honor customs common everywhere from Africa to Japan and everywhere in-between. But you don't understand that, do you?"
I don't know if their honor is the only catalyst. I believe that it was a world shattering event that woke them up to the reality of their time, and the true horror of what they, let alone their country had become.
--Ant2242 (talk) 03:33, 8 November 2016 (UTC)
The difference between a gun nut and a responsible gun owner is that the former considers the right to own tools designed to murder and maim his inalienable, absolute right. The latter doesn't.
None of these sources support your claim that Elijah tampered with the Codex. They do, however, illustrate the fact that the Codex was interpreted differently over time, just like the various holy texts I cited. The fact that it was written in a single language is irrelevant, as languages are ambiguous. You seem fond of treating language like math, which is completely baseless. The sheer volume of discussion, speculation, and scholarly analysis related to laws - including your vaunted Second Amendment - pretty much contradicts your claim that a text can have only a single meaning.
For reference, Mormons enjoy a source text written in English and there are still other denominations. As for the Torah, you are wrong.
Now, back to the roundabout: You resort to ad hominems and insult my capacity to reason. Ironic, really, when it's you who consistently fails to notice that "Aid them when you can" is not an isolated sentence, but one of two. Together, they form a classic conditional sentence (p → ~q):
P = Aid compromises Brotherhood mission
Q = Render aid
~ = Prefix signifying that a statement is not true
If P is true (Aid does compromise Brotherhood mission), then Q is not true (Don't render aid)
If P is not true (Aid doesn't compromise Brotherhood mission), then Q (Render aid)
If you ignore it at this point, I will not respond to your claims again.
Next, I find it amusing that you accuse me of not being able to read with comprehension. Nothing supports the notion that the troops were aware the brains came from military prisoners. Nothing.
Next, the fact that the PVP was a government project doesn't make every member of the research team a member of the military or make the military involved in a direct capacity. FEV research states that West Tek wasn't put under military control until 2076 (2075 in more specific sources), two-three years after the project started. It also followed on West Tek's advancements in combating the New Plague, which wasn't made under military oversight.
Next, in what way does the Brotherhood's general lack of attention towards history makes Elijah's tampering plausible? Your argument makes no sense. The Codex is learned by heart by every member of the Brotherhood and Elijah's tampering and alterations would have been noticed. Especially when the chapter in question is very, very young and the majority of its members come straight from Lost Hills (again, Veronica's age and the fact she followed Elijah into his new command makes it plain it can't really be more than two decades old or so).
Yes, their outrage is related to the experiments they uncovered. No, it doesn't mean that their honor was insulted and that honor alone was the motivation for their rampage. You also seem to forget the fact that they started murdering defenseless civilians in a kneejerk response. Massacres are also kind of against human honor customs worldwide.
Last, your attitude is not productive. Improve it. Tagaziel (talk) 11:22, 8 November 2016 (UTC)