We've Moved! Just as Gamepedia has joined forces with Fandom, this wiki had joined forces with our Fandom equivalent. The wiki has been archived and we ask that readers and editors move to the now combined wiki on Fandom. Click to go to the new wiki.

Talk:Brotherhood of Steel/Archive 1

From The Vault - Fallout Wiki
Jump to: navigation, search

NCR War confirmed!

The war with NCR was confirmed by J.E. Sawyer in a GameTrailer TV interview. 02:48, August 2, 2010 (UTC)

Proof: http://www.spike.com/full-episode/god-of-war-ghost-of/39026

Around the 10:30 mark.

Thank you. 03:20, August 2, 2010 (UTC)

Not the whole Van Buren war. Vegas' war is different. Nitty Tok. 03:28, August 2, 2010 (UTC)


&nbsp Hey, Ausir, it is canon for NMA contest purposes!--dotz 19:05, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, I noticed. Well, there is no better source for canon info on the BOS, is there? :) Ausir 20:18, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
Ausir, does it matter whether that sentence is there or not? The one about Knights Templar? Cause with it, it seems to be a run-on sentence. Without it, it's a bit more focused. -- (User:Middle Man 12:53, 12 August 2008 (UTC))
They do compare themselves to Knights Templar in Fallout 1, so I think it's better not to remove it. Ausir 13:02, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
They also refer to themselves as a "knightly order" in Fallout 3 - might sound a little better than "techno-religious organization", at any rate. -- 02:07, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

I find it kind of annoying that the people of the capital wasteland are protected by lyons detachment and yet very few people do anything for them. Yes apparently the casualty rate is horrendous but it has its perks.Bethesda should but in something like some 10 people sign up because its kind of annoying hearing them b**** and moan about not having enough supplies even after i brought them 15 perfect power armor suits 15 laser rifles 15 assualt rifles and enough food and water for months. ughhhh i needed to rant.

Fallout 3 BOS structure and ranks

It seems that the roles of the Knights have changed in FO3 - they appear to be be simply less advanced soldiers rather than manufacturers with the Scribes maintaining and constructing all the gear. I'm also not sure where the sub-ranks (Knight Captain, Knight Sergeant) fit in - to say nothing of 'Star Paladin'. And is the ARM SC Cross' Super Sledge or some other icon of the BOS? --Trithemius 23:29, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

Yes, either the ranks of the BOS as a whole changed by 2277, or the Capital Wasteland BOS uses a different rank system from the Lost Hills one. Ausir 23:56, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

I think some ranks just got new functions because the DC-BOS doesn't have enough troops. Kamuikaze 18:17, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

If that's the case, then the distinction between the two different ranking systems should be addressed 16:33, 12 April 2009 (UTC)

How clubby is the Capital Brotherhood?

If the PC kills, say, one of the lone sentries stationed next to the reflecting pool in the Mall, and there are no other BoS NPCs in visual range, will this still render the entire faction hostile to the PC? 07:27, 23 December 2008 (UTC)

No, the entire faction will not turn hostile, only BOS NPCs that detect your murderous actions will turn hostile. --DynamicEcho 08:46, 18 January 2009 (UTC)


The BoS and MEGATON theft

It gets worse than hostile...If you kill BoS to kit out Charon in their bright new armour and another one sees you and you then go home, he/she will follow you back to Megaton and take all your stuff. Everytime I kill the BoS I loose my stuff in Magaton from my Lockers. XBOX360.....Another guy reported getting home in time to see a BoS leaving his house. Shite! I paid Moira Brown enough to have it kitted out, and spent enough time arranging all my loot.To get it all stolen, hundreds of items is a bit much! I going to war with the Bos next. --ThousandHoursFalloutThreeUK 06:41, 28 June 2009 (UTC)

-might have been paladin hoss. He is found in falls church there is a unmarked quest you can do The Lost Initiate where he becomes a temporary companion and this tends to glitch causing him to pop up in random places for example after sleeping in your megaton house or just waiting (you should be able to stop this by killing him and re-claiming you stuff off his body but i haven't confirmed this its just a guess) see Paladin Hoss bugs section--OUTLAW CptDan 05:02, May 17, 2011 (UTC)


It wasn't indicated in any game and the simple fact BoS is no longer the sole custodian of advanced technology dpesn't mean they declined. 17:52, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

Comparisons in Popular Media

on the talk page it notes that the Brotherhood is close to certain Warhammer 40k soldiers, but I thought the classic comparison was to The Mobile Infantry of Heinlein's Starship Troopers.. which is, AFAIK, the progenitor of the sci-fi trend towards Power Armor-like constructions.

should this be noted or is it a bit too much like trivia?

I removed the reference to Warhammer. The fanboys on this Wiki need to stop thinking that every little coincidental similarity to their favorite video game/anime/movie was done intentionally. "Gruff space marines with cool tech" is a concept hardly unique to Warhammer.
It would be fine to note as trivia that the "original" powered armor concept came from the old Starship Troopers novel as long as the author doesn't imply the developers intentionally made the connection to the BoS. Powered armor is such a finely ingrained concept in modern pop culture that it would be illogical to assume a conscious nod to the book. ~ Unsigned 15 May 2009

Of note: an early sixties comic titled Strange Adventures once ran a series of stories based around a group called "the Atomic Knights," composed of a small band of radiation deflecting armor clad survivors battling ignorance, post-atomic squalor and weird radiation-induced monsters to rebuild the American way of life. Could this be considered partial inspiration for the Brotherhood of Steel, or at least credit as a side note? (Comic Descriptor: http://conelrad.com/books/flyleaf.php?id=230_0_1_0_M )(List of episodes and descriptions: http://darkmark6.tripod.com/atomicind.htm ) signed: 01:52, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

i seriously doubt that it was any sort of reference, but there are certain similarity between them, but more with the adeptus machnicus than the space marines, its very similar, a techno-religious group devoted to the recovery of ancient pre-[insert calamity here] and guarding the secrets of these technologies from the ignorant tribals, and preferring to keep as much technology as they can for themselves. again there are similarity's, but the likeliness that they are actual intentional references is slim to none. its not hard to see were people are coming from, but its just unlikely, has anyone bothered to ask however's idea fallout was?--Katikar 14:36, October 19, 2009 (UTC)

extermination of the bos *SPOLIERS

if you choose (*spolier*) to blow the citedal in broken steel ending,wich i did already, is it poissoable to finish of the bos for good or is that a not going to happen. it should be poissable since the brotherhood dont respawn in the wasteland or at least i dont think they do. do they?

The Pentagon may be destroyed but that doesn't mean every member of the DC BoS was in it. For that matter, at least the Midwest and California BoS are still out there with possibly other chapters in North America we haven't heard about yet. Also, we will have to wait for Fallout 4 (if that ever happens) to see if the Pentagon's destruction is made canon.


If the brotherhood ended up in the Capital Wasteland just a year before your birth, how is it that Star Paladin Cross talks about aiding your father in the wasteland? If the Brotherhood had previously assisted with Project Purity they would have had to been there for longer than a year or this is merely an inconsistency in the story. While its wholly possible in video game reasoning that the Brotherhood showed up, immediately hooked up with James, Dr. Li, and friends, then James knocked up Catherine right away, and the larger part of Project Purity was completed in about a year, then sure, w/e, but still pretty ridiculous.

By the time your outside they've been there for 20 years and it is never implied that the brotherhood of steel helped project purity originally, only during your involvement.

Hey, BoS arrived in CW in 2255, They are at the Citadel, they would PROBABLY notice a purifier being build across a body of water. You were born three years after the arrival of the BoS, and from there, they abandoned Proj. Purity after your birth, around the early 2260's (2261/2262)

I have noticed that the logo/emblem used at the top portion of the page is the non-canon, fallout tactics version, with the large gear on the right side. I was wondering if someone would kindly flip it, such that it reflects fallout 1, 2, and 3, as opposed to Tactics. That is all.

Thanks, one user changed it some time ago and I didn't notice until now. Fixed. Ausir(talk) 10:40, October 18, 2009 (UTC)

Not canon?

Unless it severely contradicts "official" canon, why aren't other fallout games considered canon? On some pages I've even seen Fo3 add-ons not considered "canon"

On what pages? FO3 add-ons are canon, even if I don't like it in some cases. And some games are not considered canon because the people in charge of the franchise decided not to count them as canon. Ausir(talk) 18:37, November 13, 2009 (UTC)
yeah, its probably just fallout purist/extremists who don't like Fo3, or at least don't like that Bethesda made it, but do not be mistaken: it IS canon--Katikar 19:01, November 13, 2009 (UTC)

Warhammer 40k

alright I'm putting this down once and for all, although the Space Marines from Warhammer 40k the brotherhood of steel is and was NOT inspired by them there have been a grand multitude of interviews with those involved with the original fallout, if the space marines had inspired the BoS they would have mentioned it, stop putting it in the article the only proof is that they are similar thats it, that is ALL there is, so at the vary least if you are intent on putting it in the article, you start right here in the talk, under this post, and discuss it, untill an argument can be given conclusivly proving that the Space Marines are a direct inspiration for the BoS, it will be continually and conssistantly removed from the articleKatikar 11:53, February 8, 2010 (UTC)


It's never discussed exactly how the East coast BOS got to the east coast. I mean, they could have walked, but don't you think it's more likely they used airships, like the midwestern? Could the East coast be a part of the division that got separated from what became the midwest? 16:30, April 10, 2010 (UTC)

in broken steel you can find a military truck with their logo. perhaps some of the pre-war military vehicles survived and they drove there? --Icommandoxx 18:16, February 13, 2011 (UTC)icommadoxx


I was just wondering what form of government would the BOS be? You know, republic, democratic etc? 10:40, May 20, 2010 (UTC)

Feudal, at best. The Brotherhood is a military order, ruled by a small circle of elders who are apparently chosen by other elders. It's not democratic, not by a long shot. http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/fallout/images/0/08/Personal_Sig_Image.gif Tagaziel (call!) 12:21, May 20, 2010 (UTC)


In Fallout 3, the BoS have been downplayed strength wise, In the old days it spoke of one Paladin being able to wipe out hordes of enemies, now they can handle maybe.. 5 supermutants before dying, you think, any logical reasons? Zachariah Zuan 23:06, May 23, 2010 (UTC)
Easy. Stupid recruits, bad weapons, and old-fashioned armor. Nitty Tok. 23:08, May 23, 2010 (UTC)

New BOS not good

I support the Outcasts 100%. If their ideas are not right, then how come in the West, where the BOS has stayed true, they are rapidly rebuilding civilization? For instance, the NCR. The New BOS may be protecting every single illeriterate group of tribesmen, but they are losing men and supplies in the progress. In my opinion, if the BOS stayed true, and protected only the biggest, most techonological advanced cities and towns, the Wasteland would have been long rebuilt by now.

Random person

The brotherhood on the west coast haven't been engaged in a war with a hostile and neverending supply of supermutants.

It has. Vault Dweller stormed Mariposa with the help of the Paladins. XEL 21:43, February 14, 2011 (UTC)

I Hate the East Coast BoS!

If you hate the Capital Wasteland BoS than you are not alone. I hate them because all of their soldiers treat people like me like shit and claim that they are saving my ass 24/7 when it's me who is actually helping the people in the Wastes instead of sitting around in a nice cushy fort with some fancy weapons.

Dude East Coast BoS are going to be the nicest they get West Coast BoS are major dicks ( 03:46, September 3, 2010 (UTC))

The East Coast "Brotherhood of Steel" are lead by a pussy who thinks, "Let's stop collecting weapons to destroy our enemies with and let's help a bunch of low-life, bedragled wasters who don't give a flying f%$k about it". In Fallout 3, I destroyed the East Coast BoS because they were not fit to carry the title "Brotherhood of Steel". At least the West Coast BoS knows what the deal is, "We discover tech so we may destroy our enemies and make them run like little girls as we gun them down like filthy dogs!"

Damn it, I wish you help the BoS in New Vegas, but help them like you can help the NCR, Caesar, House, etc. - Texas Ranger 19:12, November 13, 2010 (UTC)

the East Coast brotherhood never stopped collecting tech , they just made it a secondary mission , behind protect the wastes from the super mutant army

BOS East Coast Strategy

Their military strategy is pathetic. They talk about saving the wasteland they're hardly protecting anything. If they were smart they would station paladins at settlements instead of protecting useless locations(ex: Pennsylvania Ave). Paladins shouldn't be stationed in D.C. It is suicide. They should consistently raid the D.C. ruins. Therefore they will not lose communications with their soldiers and their men will be well supplied. The only place they should fortify is GNR. That's it.

And if they were somewhat half logical, they would aid in the construction of new settlements and hoard roaming wastelanders into them, and fortify it.

I mean come on, their strategy is pure stupidity.

Veronica: So... what do you think of the Brotherhood of Steel? Courier: I heard they can shoot lasers out of their eyes!

Best low intelligence dialogue, ever.--Shadow 21:26, October 23, 2010 (UTC)

the brotherhood are busy shoving the super mutants back and trying to hold them in DC , thats why they are stationed all over it , if they leave DC to go pick flowers with the wastelanders , the capital wasteland will once again be flooded by super mutants as it was BEFORE the brotherhood arrived , and the brotherhood and the wasteland will all be defeated .... at the moment , the brotherhood is too busy holding back the muties to go and help build communities , so yeah , they are helping the capital wasteland

Uh, as I pointed out some hundred times (or close), the supermutants were never a major threat to the wasteland. There's not a single line of dialogue that states that they were anything more than a minor nuisance to anyone, except the obsessed, sick old man that is Owyn Lyons. Tagaziel 10:38, 20 June 2012 (UTC)

Any ways to gain faction rep after "Still in the Dark"

Are there any other ways to gain faction rep after "Still in the Dark"? P.S. I help Hardin become Elder and after waiting 5 in-game days, he still isn't. - Texas Ranger 22:09, November 16, 2010 (UTC)


In the article it says that the BoS in New Vegas help patrol the Mojave if they side with the NCR. Anyone care to elaborate where these patrols might be? Because I haven't seen any. Smuff [The cake is a lie.] 22:48, November 18, 2010 (UTC)

They patrol the long-15, and help clear it out much like the NCR patrols, only they don't do it half-***ed.--Icommandoxx 18:27, February 13, 2011 (UTC)icommandoxx

notable members

shouldnt the lone wanderer be mentioned there? i mean, you can become a knight (or a paladin, im not sure)... and the courier can join them too [chosen one, vault dweller, forgot if you could join the BoS with them]

But some players don't, only in Tactics and Brotherhood of Steel are you required to be a member of the BoS. --Pongsifu 23:59, November 25, 2010 (UTC)

Knight or Paladin?

I did more for the brotherhood on the east coast, than i did for the NV west coast faction, and they declare me a knight? But just a few things here and there, and im an honorable paladin in NV, not a complaint,but I mean.........COME ON!!!

bad game by bethesda... James Jr 13:59, January 25, 2011 (UTC)

Actually ,they do give you a title in Fo3 , sarah lyons makes you a member of the lyons pride , the highest ranking warriors of the CWBOS ... so ... what are you on about ?

Major Fallout New Vegas Bug - Faction Armor Glitch Resulting in Hostility

There seems to be a major bug in Fallout New Vegas that can seriously ruin the game for you.

This has to do with faction standings and armor. When I approached the Brotherhood of Steel they were instantly aggressive towards me and my companions for no apparent reason. The same thing happened with the NCR at one point in the game. I tried wearing different armor and gear but nothing seemed to work.

The problem with this bug is that the game sometimes fails to register that you have removed faction specific armor. If you for example was wearing Legion Veteran Armor and then switched to Combat Armor, the game might still think that you are wearing the Legion faction armor. This means that any faction that is hostile towards the Legion will also attack you on sight even though you are no longer in disguise.

I think that this problem arises when you swich gear without unequipping it first. If you have both the faction specific armor and the non affiliated armor in you inventory and you then change from one to the other directly, the game does not register that you have removed the faction specific armor.

I'm not sure if this bug will stack all the armor that you have worn in the game but there is an easy way to solve this problem. You have to take every piece of armor that you have saved up in storage and then individually equip and unequip everything in your inventory, one by one, so that you get a message telling you that you are no longer in disguise.

This solved all the problems that I had with NCR and the Brotherhood of Steel (PS3).

Why does everyone hate the Brotherhood of Steel?

Every faction I met you name wants to destroy the Brotherhood of Steel? I know they can be dicks but they are not aggresive as the NCR or the Legion.--Helljumper 96 20:04, January 24, 2011 (UTC)helljumper96--Helljumper 96 20:04, January 24, 2011 (UTC)

well, if you keep mcnamara as the elder, the ncr wont destroy them. the ending says that they'll send patrols at I-15 and Highway-95 and the ncr will give the BoS their salvaged power armor. James Jr 13:56, January 25, 2011 (UTC)

No I dont mean that becuse I never use salvaged power armor I mean that they want to destroy them even if they dont have nothing to do with them like Mr House wanted to make them allies but still wants to destroy them even if they are dead in a hole and Caesar can't make a decision because of a tumor that makes him have headaches and not think but the BOS are great allies for their technological supremacy. --Helljumper 96 20:55, February 3, 2011 (UTC)

because, all the factions want the vegas strip. The BOS has a problem with that becuse they want the securitrons and the like.--Icommandoxx 18:36, February 13, 2011 (UTC)icommandoxx
The West Coast Brotherhood is in no shape to want the Securitrons on the strip, much less after they get the upgrade. It'd be something like this: "Oh, hello, mr Paladin, there are ten of you and you have power armour and gatling lasers? Oh, that's swell, we have them too! And 9mm machine guns! And grenade launchers! And missile launchers! And there are 30 of us! And all of us have the same, massive firepower!" Then, the Brotherhood gets owned. Hard. http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/fallout/images/0/08/Personal_Sig_Image.gif Tagaziel (call!) 19:52, February 13, 2011 (UTC)

I like that tagaziel!!! --James Jr 12:04, February 28, 2011 (UTC)

Not if from the Capital Wasteland they send Liberty Prime all fixed. I dont think the securitrons would stand a chance --Helljumper 96 18:29, February 28, 2011 (UTC)

I don't really think they can fix it. They don't have the resources. And how they can bring it to the Mojave? Using vertibirds? I don't think they can lift it. And I don't think they have enough 'fuel' or whatever to bring Liberty Prime to the Mojave, it's too far away from DC.--James Jr 14:13, March 2, 2011 (UTC)

i think they maybe can because at the end of fallout 3 they give you a unmarked quest maybe giving rothchild all the cameras in the capitol wasteland would fix him or maybe not it would be very cool add-on for new vegas "the return of the brotherhood of stell" --Helljumper 96 01:30, March 17, 2011 (UTC)

Helljumper, get out, you can't spell "steel", get out idiot, you can't spell or use proper grammar, fallout wiki doesn't need people who can't spell.


--USSRattachmentAmerica 15:05, April 10, 2011 (UTC)USSRattactmentAmerica

You know what's really quite humorous? MY gRAMMER IS COOL LOLL I hAV BEST rUn-0n s00ntence, you didn't 1337 SPEK LI4E ME 1 PWN YOU 1UMP HE4D, a4d every00ne is stOOpid" -- CoD addict (talk) - 16:17, April 10, 2011 (UTC)

In the House Resort there is a painting of Mr. House at the feet of what looks to be liberty prime, so he is mabey the fifth person in my guesse of who will be the Fallout 3 charachter to make an apearence.Backwater Rifle

11:17 (EST) April 10 2011

I recorrected Helljumper's grammar so he doesn't look a bit stupid.


--RedArmySacredWar 05:08, April 13, 2011 (UTC)

Going back to the debate over the cwbos coming to the mojave. I think it is very much possible that they do it. Historically speaking during the scourge of the pitt. The pitt is relatively close to the capital wasteland and while they bos may not have the purity they did in their ranks back then. I think they can make it hands down. Liberty prime will do most of the heavier lifting such as enclave, legion or whatever other encounters that are in post war america while the paladins would mop up. They also have bolstered their ranks with the local enlistees as long as the lyons prid. The most important reason they would make it is because of they're victory against the enclave which showed a massive flow of tech such as plasma weapons, key components for liberty prime. The enclave had a much more advanced power armor and who knows what rothschild could do with it. THey wont be wasting their time reverse engineering this tech but improving it. I do hope that they get back intouch with the west because Then they will able to find poseidon energy which will without a doubt insure the brotherhood securing the usa and the cavmen ncr out.-- 22:36, April 20, 2011 (UTC)

thats problaby because everytime you send robots, power, energy weapons you name it near the BoS they kill the person(s) who got it and take. i mean i know its about controling technology so it couldnt destroy us again, but WTF its not like they are taking a nuclear bomb with them or alien technology.

obvious bias

the CW BOS is listed in the same section as van buren offshoots and other non-canon factions...nice work. Sometimes the NMA slant here shines out too often

...as is the West-Coast BOS. YuriKaslov 20:29, March 3, 2011 (UTC)

BOS are evil, and USSR is great as a faction

The USSR should be a faction in Fallout 3 that is hostile to Raiders, BOS, Slavers, and religious groups in Fallout.

The BOS steal things, as one user said.

The BOS never share their water, they kill civilians.

They have big egos about themselves, and they use a overpowered mech which can't be killed.

They steal things because it's a hardcoded glitch which makes everyone take better equipment. This has been known to happen in megaton often. The BOS set up water caravans the capital wasteland with purified water. The west avoid killing unless its to gain new technology, the east is devoted to saving civilians. And that last parts pretty much true. And why would the USSR be a faction? The Union of Soviet Socialists is a location fromed by the comunist goverment, the US wasn't even at war with them in the game's timeline. Chaos ian7 15:04, April 8, 2011 (UTC)
Granted, the U.S.S.R. is cool and all, but it wouldn't make any sense for Soviets to be in the United States. Chinese spies made sense because we were in an actual war with them, but the U.S.S.R. was just a bystander on the outskirts of the American/Chinese conflict. Best regards, Kastera (talk) 04:40, April 9, 2011 (UTC)

Agreed with the topic creator.

--USSRattachmentAmerica 15:32, April 10, 2011 (UTC)

This goes to USSRattachemntAmerica; may I be the first to say that you may want to think of a different user name so you can agree with USSRmillitary6663 (a.k.a. yourself) without someone seeing through the ruse. My suggestion for agreeing with yourself; use a user name that doesn't have to do with the USSR, and use proper grammar, because as we all know, USSRmillitary6663 doesn't use it well. Best regards, Kastera (talk) 16:42, April 10, 2011 (UTC)

I think the next Fallout game should take place in (Once again) Washington or San Antonio. I mean, have you been to San Antonio? The City is just unbelievable and full of city limits.

i hate USSR in fact i hate communism and socialism plus the FO 3 BoS is not really BoS they are nice to civialians and freakin' help a hole damn lot if you played the game and understood it you would know that they can't give water to every body because they dont have enough caps to pay for caravans pay for ammo ( which the FO3 BoS buys cause they aint really BoS they're nice to civilians) pay for weapons pay for repairing them and all kind of stuff

Um, what?

Should this even be in the page?

"All of these, except the 2nd and 3rd pictures, are great." and "How punk ass is this picture?"

They don't look like they would be on a wiki page, more like a profile page.Donovans Wrench 18:37, April 24, 2011 (UTC)

Those got taken down. A new user doesn't know how to edit pages whatsoever, so here's hoping he learns quickly. --Kastera April 24, 2011, 21:30 (UTC)

Best and Brightest, or Hereditary Tribe?

The article claims two things about the Brotherhood. While these are not truly contradictory, they seem to be somewhat inconsistent.

1. "The ranks of the Brotherhood of Steel are generally recognized as being composed of the best and the brightest remaining to humanity."

2. "The vast majority of BoS members are born into the Brotherhood - they very rarely accept outsiders into their ranks."

Generally, if you have a group of the "best and brightest," you get them by being exclusive, getting a large pool of potential members, and selecting only a few. That's how how the National Academy of Sciences gets its members, how the Navy SEALs get their members, how Stanford gets its students, etc.

If the Brotherhood is mostly composed of people who are in the Brotherhood because they were born into it, the Brotherhood will be pretty close to average, with a few best and brightest and a few idiots, along with a competent but unexceptional majority.

It is probably fair to say that the Brotherhood members are better-educated than the average Wastelander. For instance, probably no one in the Brotherhood is illiterate, and most are at least educated to the point of the equivalent of college. In addition, the resources of the Brotherhood probably means they rarely suffer childhood malnutrition compared to other wastelanders, which has a negative impact on brain development. Still, that puts them at about the level of late-20th/early-21st century Americans and other "first world" people like Japanese, French, etc, on average, which seems a bit of a stretch to call "best and brightest."

One might postulate that BoS members are, thanks to the original founding group, just genetically superior to most people, but there's no real reason to think that's the case. The group was founded by U.S. soldiers and their families. Soldiers are, on average, not idiots, but not geniuses either: it's a fairly average group. 30 on the AFQT isn't a high bar to pass, and it's unlikely that the Sino-American war was a time of particularly high standards for recruitment (even if the US didn't resort to outright conscription). The West-Tek facility also included scientists, who may have been a bit smarter on average, but Maxson killed them all for crimes against humanity. Even if they were all the best and brightest of the US army in 2077, regression to the mean would have meant that by 2161 the descendants of the 2077 group would be maybe slightly smarter than average. Intelligence is partially genetic, but it isn't handed from one generation to the next like a family heirloom.

One might say that the Brotherhood is actually very selective even among their own descendants: i.e., Brotherhood couples have very large families, but only a few are allowed to stay in the Brotherhood. For instance, a Brotherhood family might have eight kids, and only the two "best and brightest" will be in the Brotherhood as adults. The other six? Sent into the Wastes? Killed? I don't know. Doesn't seem probable.

One might also claim that "they very rarely accept outsiders into their ranks" is only based on the frequency with which they accept applicants relative to the number of applicants, not their actual composition. I.e., if a Brotherhood chapter somewhere has 150 people in it, then they might actually be 50 born brothers and 100 outside recruits. However, if 5,000 outsiders apply to join the Brotherhood of Steel, and only 100 get in, then from the perspective of an outsider applicant, the Brotherhood "very rarely accepts outsiders into their ranks," (the odds are 50 to 1 against, after all) even though looking at the chapter's actual composition, it's mostly outsiders. However, that's not what the article actually says: namely "The vast majority of BoS members are born into the Brotherhood."

Anyway, I realize that maybe I'm putting too much analysis into two lines, but still: can this be reconciled?

Personally, I'd lean toward just dropping the claim that they're the best and brightest -- they're a hereditary tribe, with abilities that are fairly close to average, who happen to be sitting on a big hoard of technology and happen to be well-organized, militant, and have technology-oriented cultural mores -- but that's just me.

Idhan 06:34, May 29, 2011 (UTC)

this site is missing npc's that are in the Mojave brotherhood of steel chapter

in the bunker there are unnamed scribes, knights but I've looked for a few days threw out this site and i have found no base id's or even pictures for them you have the unnamed paladins but not the knights or scribes

Questionable Development entry?

I just noticed the following on the article page:

They also appear to based off the Knights Templar, who collected books unlike the Brotherhood.

Is is just me, or does this strain the limits of notability? Is it possible someone saw this "association" based on the fact that one of Lyons' scribes will pay handsomely for pre-War books?

I don't see any more evidence of them being based off the Poor Fellow-Soldiers of Christ and of the Temple of Solomon (Templars) than I do of them being modeled after the Swiss Guard, the British Navy, the Salvation Army or a Carnegie Library.

If nobody objects (or comes up with a canon source for the reference), I want to pull it; I don't think it adds anything worthwhile.

Thanks! UncleBubba 22:49, September 26, 2011 (UTC)

Is the East Coast Brotherhood unnecessarily diminished in the article?

The East Coast BOS are a major plot-driving force in Fallout 3 - or - a full 25% of the main series, yet their brief description is basically hidden in between non-canon information without even a subheading - under the "divisions and locations" section.

It seems almost personal at this point... Instead of lashing out at Bethesda's writers for their treatment of the East Coast chapter - why can it not be celebrated? Historically, opposing factions break off from movements and societies all the time. It's commonplace - nay - expected.

Instead of sweeping it under the rug in the main article, wouldn't at least its own heading make sense - i.e. - East Coast Brotherhood - or whatever, in the main BOS article? (I realize there's a whole, well-written article chronicling the East Coat BOS, I'm just pointing out the awkward and diminishing juxtaposition in the main article). Thanks for your time.

Person of Refinement 19:19, November 10, 2011 (UTC)

Apparent Bias, Citation Needed

There are a lot of uncited claims about the comparative legitimacy and technological standing of the East Coast Brotherhood splinter groups. It seems somebody is letting their preference for the Outcasts cloud their objectivity.

Statements such as this: "While the Enclave was destroyed, so was their primary repository of weapons and equipment, the mobile base crawler. As such, Lyons' chapter still faces problems in terms of shortage of manpower, equipment and training, as while Enclave equipment is advanced, Lyons' men lack the technical expertise and knowledge necessary to fully understand and maintain them, while the equipment removed by the Outcasts still remains firmly under their control." seem to be near complete speculation without any citation.

What I gather from the Broken Steel DLC for Fallout 3 is that The Brotherhood have a rather immense haul from the Mobile Crawler and the war in general, I don't remember any mentions of losing a great amount of equipment or any notable difficulty adapting to it's use. If anyone can provide any quotes to the contrary I would really appreciate them doing so.

Now on the Outcasts, The Lone Wanderer may have passed some pretty awesome technology their way and it's mentioned that the Outcasts get a share of the spoils of the VSS Armory in the Operation: Anchorage DLC. Other than this I don't see any reference to them getting ahold of any amount of tech on the scale of the "mainstream" Brotherhood in the region. Also worth noting is the placement of Lyons' Brotherhood in the "Rogue Chapters" section when the Outcasts apparently qualify as "Loyalist". As far as I know the main branch of the Brotherhood out west are barely aware of the conflict between East Coast Brotherhood forces and there's no indication of them supporting either over the other. That the Outcasts believe they will be "Vindicated in the end" does not make it so. I'd argue that if Lyons' Chapter is to be qualified as Rogue then so should the Outcasts.

Finally, on the subject of Lyons' Chapter itself being classified as Rogue. The word in-game is that reinforcements and resources have been cut off to the eastern detachment in response to deviation from the original mission against orders. As far as I know the Western Brotherhood still acknowlege Lyons' group as Brotherhood troops but simply refuse to support a venture that is not in Brotherhood interests. Bearing in mind the essential (even dramatic) success of the original mission in the collection of large amounts of advanced technology, the fact that Lyons is in possession of the last member of the Maxson line and that Lyons is responsible for the devestation of local Enclave forces (An old enemy of the Brotherhood) seems to explain quite well why the Brotherhood leadership in the west did not go all the way and declare the East Coast Brotherhood traitors, because he does hold the Maxson child and he could still prove an asset to the Brotherhood at large. It would also seem likely that after learning of Lyons' success the East Coast Brotherhood would rather welcome them back into the fold.

Apologies for the long post, but I feel it needed saying. I really hope a constructive dialogue can be started here. 17:10, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

Hello there and thank you for the contribution. We are working hard to provide consistent referencing for the article. The chapter descriptions are currently in line for rewriting, as they need to be updated to reflect the gathered sources. Sources which are currently present in the Lyons' Brotherhood of Steel and History of the Lyons' Brotherhood of Steel articles.
Generally speaking, I'll address your points:
  1. The supply of manpower and ordnance to Lyons' Brotherhood is in short supply. This is corroborated by references in the above linked History article, which contain Owyn Lyons' explicit statements about the state of the Brotherhood, as well as his conversations with Scribe Peabody (I believe), who explicitly mentions that the Schism severely undermined the Brotherhood's supply of technology, including spare parts.
  2. There is no mention nor appearance of a substantial influx of recruits at the Citadel or elsewhere in Fallout 3 or Broken Steel. The NPCs reference more technology coming their way, but at no point is it even mentioned that the Brotherhood is taking on new recruits. To the contrary, the loss of Liberty Prime effectively sets the Brotherhood at square one (referred to in-game) or even worse. Again, this is supported by references.
  3. The Outcasts status is based on in-game references and evidence. Unlike Lyons, they focus on recovering technology (including Enclave power armor before Lyons becomes aware of them, as evidenced by Fort Independence logs), have established a recovery operation at VSS and perform long range patrols in the wasteland, unlike Lyons. They have not participated in the war with the Enclave and did not suffer the attrition it caused. That's the grounds for their status.
  4. Legitimacy. While there is no final confirmation, Rothschild describes the situation in detail and explains that when Lyons' abandonment of the original mission years earlier came to light, the Brotherhood cut off all communications and support to the chapter. For this reason, Lyons is considered rogue and Casdin, who openly rebelled and returned to the original mission, is classified as loyalist. The presence of Maxson is not relevant, as the importance of the Maxson bloodline by 2277 is not established. No further data is available, so it's not used to determine Lyons' legitimacy. It might've been simply an attempt to get rid of the child by the Elder Council, a move not unprecedented in such organizations.
Regardless, no evidence exists that would suggest Lyons' chapter is considered loyal by anyone else in the Brotherhood other than himself. Again, we welcome citations to the contrary. Thanks for your time. Tagaziel (talk) 19:19, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

Your first point isn't disputed by me, although the point in continuity these references come from should be kept in mind. I don't think anyone would be so bold as to state that Lyons' Brotherhood is in the same state at the end of Broken Steel as they were at the beginning of Fallout 3. For instance, "Back to square one" is quite obviously in reference to Liberty Prime. As in, it is now naught but a large mass of useless metal taking up room, as it was to begin with.

On point 2, methods and results are not the same thing. I do not dispute your statements on the methods of the Outcasts, but just because they make it their primary goal to collect technology does not mean that they actually end up in possession of any more. We cannot say that because collection of tech is the Outcast's priority that they actually have more/better tech. The Outcasts do seem to have advance knowledge of Enclave tech that Lyons and his troops don't, but there is no indication that they are in possesion of any notable amount of it. Certainly not enough to outfit any of their troops. They couldn't spare one for Casdin.

The Brotherhood however, mention the spoils of the war often, even before The Mobile Crawler they're willing to hand out surplus to Rivet City Security, whereas I don't recall seeing a single Outcast with a plasma rifle. I seem to remember Rothchild actually noting how long it's going to take them to catalog all the new acquisitions after the destruction of the Crawler.

Point 3, you're right. There is no final confirmation, what is in the article is speculation and it does not belong there. I'm simply saying that Outcasts don't have any more acknowlegement from the main Brotherhood than Lyons does and arguably less. It is mentioned that the Western Elders were not in agreement over Lyons' interpretation of his oaths, hence why they didn't declare him a traitor. Casdin did that. The Maxson bloodline is revered among Lyons' Brotherhood, "Soul forged in Steel" or whatever, it's not likely that sprung up independently of larger Brotherhood beliefs. I'm not saying that being trusted with the Maxson child is a sign on the Western Brotherhood's approval as Maxson was sent with the detachment before the mission changed. I'm merely stating it as another possible reason that the Western Elders could want Lyons on side.

You seem to be basing some of your opinion on the idea that it should be proven that the status quo is undisturbed and until then it should be considered disturbed. There's no evidence to suggest that Brotherhood opinion on the Maxson bloodline has...stayed the same? There's no evidence that people other than Lyons himself have...NOT declared him a traitor? 22:40, 18 June 2013 (UTC)

I don't get why are you using Maxon child as argument, to prove Lyons' BoS is loyalist one. Especially, considering he went to east BEFORE original BoS "cut off all communications and support to the chapter", what clearly shows original BoS opinion about Lyons' and his people. I mean, they're rogue for them, like midwestern BoS. Want reference? Look there then:

Veronica: We've had people go rogue, though, and start helping people. One chapter had a small civil war over it. We take our isolationism seriously.

--Languorous_Maiar (talk) 02:48, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

Someone can't read. 03:50, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

Again, thanks for your input. I'll refer directly to references.

  1. The reasons the Brotherhood is in a bad shape at the beginning of Broken Steel (DLC title aside) is that it was in a sorry shape at the beginning of the conflict and by its end, as sourced in the History article, it has exhaused its resources and manpower. There is no mention of any recruitment drive or people volunteering to join the Brotherhood in the meantime, quite the opposite.

- Good morning, Elder. I'm sorry to report that things are not as they should be. Ever since Casdin was outcast...

- That name is not to be spoken within this Citadel. Do you understand? I wish it were not so, truly I do, but he is Outcast. He has been judged.

- I know the protocols, sir. But the equipment that they stole was very valuable. Our weapons are beginning to deteriorate without the spare parts.

- I understand, Peabody. But you'll need to make do the best you can. If our weapons can't penetrate that Enclave armor, we stand no chance.

- Yes, Elder. I understand. I'm sure... we've got the parts around here somewhere...

— Peabody and Lyons

- Greetings, Elder. I wish I could say that things were well. Unfortunately, I am still having supply problems. When Casdin...

- Scribe. You are not to speak the name of an Outcast in the walls of the Citadel. Is that understood?

- I... I understand, sir. But the Outcasts have stolen a great deal of our uncatalogued equipment. I am beginning to run short of supplies for repairs.

- Then make do with what you have. We may lack the Enclave's resources, but I'm counting on your ingenuity to make up for that!

- Yes, Elder. I understand. Forgive me for speaking out of turn. My... frustration got the better of me.

— Ditto

And now here we are, holed up in our Citadel. Low on resources, low on troops. It's enough to make an old man so very... tired.

— Lyons

We live and die by our dedication to the Brotherhood. To go against orders... It's not something that's done. I appreciate that Lyons believes he is doing what is right, but he should never have disobeyed orders. And now look where it's gotten us. Forces dwindled, Super Mutants on one side, Enclave on the other. We can barely take care of ourselves.

— Rothschild

You know the Wasteland. Imagine trying to get fresh water to every known settlement, without getting it stolen by Raiders or Mutants. Now imagine doing that without any trained soldiers or military resources because they've all been exhausted fighting a little war with the Enclave. Yeah. That's MY job. Not to mention the mountain of crap I get from all the lab coats running around underfoot.

— Bigsley

Perhaps not, but that doesn't change the fact that it (the destruction of Liberty Prime) sets us back years... Years... ...and it removes the one significant military advantage we had over the Enclave.

— Rothschild

I hope that's true. With all of the Brotherhood's resources committed to protecting against an Enclave attack, we're spread thin. So thin that we can't spare anyone to research a new weapon that might help us against the Enclave's vertibirds. At least, until now. From information we've gathered, it seems what we need may be located in the Olney Powerworks, north of that city.

— Tristan
  1. The reason the Outcasts would have the advantage is that they did not suffer attrition of the Enclave war, mentioned above, and still retain their veteran members that were a part of the original Brotherhood. They also didn't expend their resources and technology stockpile on a similar war (again, as mentioned above) I wouldn't rely too much on the "Casdin doesn't wear Enclave armor" argument, however. Lyons' seemingly captured numerous suit of Enclave power armor and plasma weapons, yet apart from Tristan's plasma rifle, none of his forces are ever seen using these weapons.
  1. The exact quote from Rothschild mentions sifting through the wreckage of the crawler (which suffered orbital micro-nuclear bombardment) and how it is going to take them years to do so. The exact quote goes "I've been amazingly busy ever since we began clashing with the Enclave. All their technology is amazing. It's going to take me years to sift through the wreckage of their mobile platform alone." Regardless, it is true that the Brotherhood pays Rivet City for distribution, but this is wholly Bigsley's initiative, who pays out of stocks assigned to him by the Citadel. It's not an official policy.
  1. The reason that Lyons is listed as rogue is (a) Veronica's statement and (b) the following quote from Rothschild. The boldened part is an explicit statement that, well, Lyons was cut off and declared rogue. I have found no source whatsoever that would imply that the Elders had any doubts about the decision or disagreed about Lyons' interpretation of his duties and mission parameters. As such, Rothschild remains the only reliable source.

Finding the source of the mutants and putting a stop to them was his goal. Our original mission became an afterthought. We've failed at both. For years he'd try and persuade them to send reinforcements and supplies, all the while stringing them along, saying he was sticking to the mission. [...] Lyons knew that, but ignored it. He decided it was more important to save the people here than to obey orders from his superiors. Finally, things came to a head. Lyons directly refused orders, and so the West Coast cut us off. No communications, no reinforcements.Lines of communication were severed years ago. The Western Elders have washed their hands of us.

— Rothschild
  1. The importance of the Maxson bloodline by 2277 is not established, to my knowledge. The Fallout 3 Official Game Guide explicitly states the following: ""Squire Maxson is a descendant of the legendary Roger Maxson, founder of the Brotherhood of Steel. His father, a high-ranking Paladin serving just outside the N.C.R. (New California Republic), was recently killed in battle, and his mother, the Lady Maxson, sent the boy east to be raised under the tutelage of the respected Elder Lyons. Squire Maxson tends toward timidity, which is the main reason his mother sent him to the Citadel." Since the decision to send the boy to Lyons was made by his mother, not the Elder council, it doesn't factor into the loyalist/rogue question.
  2. Last, Outcasts. The reason they are listed as loyalist is because they specifically split away from Lyons, reestablished their original mission, and seek to reconnect with the original Brotherhood. While they do not have official sanction due to a lack of communication, their behaviour, mission, and policy put them in line with the original Brotherhood. It's the same reason why forces cut off from the main force that refused to desert are considered loyalist.

Thanks for an enlightening discussion. Tagaziel (talk) 06:09, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

Why are you bringing up those referrences? I don't deny them, I do play the game and have heard them all. They don't contradict me.

It is simple fact that we see the Brotherhood in possession of more advanced tech than the Outcasts. There's no references to suggest that the Outcasts have had any success reverse engineering their miniscule amount of advanced Enclave tech from what we've seen. Lyons' Brotherhood have. The Outcasts are not seen in possession of any enclave level tech that the player does not drop in their laps. What's the first thing you'll notice when you walk into the Citadel Armory? There's a plasma rifle sitting right on Peabody's desk. What's Paladin Tristan got there? A plasma rifle. They've started using this technology in the field, as of yet only entrusting it to those of sufficiently high rank.

I see your point about the Loyalist/Rogue thing. I'm using different criteria to define those terms, the Outcasts have stuck to their original mission of collecting technology, Lyons openly deviated from that. However it turns out that he's inadvertently succeeded at the mission anyway due to the spoils of the war with the Enclave.

And once more, just ONCE more. I am not saying that entrusting Lyons with Maxson is a sign of continued trust from the Western Elders. I am saying that him being with Lyons is a good incentive for them not to permanently distance themselves from Lyons too much.

So, a POTENTIAL bargaining chip. Not a Seal of Approval.

I will explicitly say that I understand that Lyons has suffered greater troop losses, naturally. You don't seem to be able to admit that, perhaps due to no merit of Lyons' own, he has succeeded at the original mission to a greater degree than the Outcasts.

- Lyons' Brotherhood is shown to possess, reverse engineer and implement Enclave technology. - The Outcasts are not shown to possess any usable amount of advanced tech unless the player decides to share theirs with them.

Put another way,

The player gives the Outcasts Enclave tech, The Brotherhood gives the player Enclave tech.

"So in return we can offer Assault Rifle ammo, Frag Grenades or Stimpaks?" - Outcasts

"Reward? Oh yeah, sure. Have a Gatling Laser, Plasma Psitol and a set of Enclave Power Armor, you want ammo for that? We got ammo for that." - Brotherhood

I can scarcely believe you're seriously holding the position that you are. 14:52, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

"The Outcasts are not seen in possession of any enclave level tech that the player does not drop in their laps."

Dialogues are enough, it isn't required to see stocks of Outcasts to prove they have those stocks. Like in F2 in Shady Shands you didn't saw thousands of people.

"They're there. It's game logic. You don't see them for the same reason NCR is only three maps, only has 1 councilor/senator, and only about 40-50 people in its city limits. That's why the Chop Shop in Reno exists, why the bum outside of NCR offers to watch a car for you before you show up in one, and a reason that NCR built a garage in Shady Sands. So to explain "game logic" in this instance, there's nothing precious about building a car of your own if you can steal one – or if somebody else in town has one. Or in the words of one designer (me), "there's no good reason why a PC would want to undertake a fucking huge Fed Ex quest to rebuild one if they can jack one from the locals."

--Languorous_Maiar (talk) 16:55, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

I don't know of any dialogue that says the Outcasts are in possession of significant amounts of Enclave tech. There are a couple of terminal entries with analysis of Plasma Rifles and Enclave Power Armor but nowhere is it stated that the have significant amounts of it.

Your point on "Game Logic" doesn't apply here because Scribe Peabody DOES have a Plasma Rifle on his desk and Paladin Tristan DOES have one equiped. Scribe Bigsley actually rewards you with acquired Enclave tech and no small amount of it.

It's not Game Logic because the exact same thing I'm saying is missing for the Outcasts is present for the Brotherhood.

So it's more like:

"This settlement has 50 people in it, it's a tiny village."

"No that's Game Logic, it's a city, they just couldn't accurately represent the population of a city in the game."

"Then why does the neighboring city have a population of over 500,000?" 17:28, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

I'm not sure why you attach such significance to singular instances of the Brotherhood using Enclave weaponry. You are drawing far reaching conclusions from plasma rifles in Tristan's and Peabody's possession, yet you ignore explicit remarks by both Rothschild and Bigsley, made after the conquest of the purifier and the destruction of Raven Rock that the Brotherhood has expended its military resources (Bigsley) and lost its only advantage over the Enclave (Rothschild). If the Brotherhood indeed experienced a sudden influx of technology reclaimed from the Enclave, they would not have either of these problems, as they would be facing the Enclave on even terms instead of with inferior tech.
I think the salient issue here is the notion that the Outcasts can hold a superior position to a faction that managed to defeat the Enclave. I think it's important to note that the only reason the Brotherhood was able to do so was because of Liberty Prime and El Dubya's interference and in all of these assaults Enclave ordnance was destroyed. The crawler, the sole remaining command center and repository of high technology, was leveled with orbital bombardment, while Raven Rock and its production facilities were buried under tons of rock. The Brotherhood may have recovered some amounts of infantry weapons and gear as well as a Vertibird, but it's still a small faction that was severely compromised by years of warfare without reinforcement and dwindling supplies and only managed to win by the skin of their teeth. The Outcasts, in the meantime, are shown to have acquired Enclave technology and were running tests on them to further their understanding, before the Brotherhood even became aware of the faction's presence. How much technology they have is unknown, but it's unfair to dismiss them on the basis that a plasma rifle is seen in use by one paladin and lies on the table of a scribe. Especially since there's a world of difference between reverse-engineering weapons and using them.
Maxson's status as a bargaining chip is dubious, at best. Since the guide explicitly states it's his mother that made the call, not the Elders, the importance of the Maxson bloodline waned, possibly as the Founder was deified. Kind of how descendants of Napoleon aren't glorified by anyone (and it's a similar timeframe).
Can you propose a different version of the article? One that wouldn't glorify either faction and would stick to the facts, instead of making far reaching conclusions on flimsy premises? Tagaziel (talk) 21:15, 19 June 2013 (UTC)
I feel that I need to interject here, the schism only happened the year earlier.--Ant2242 (talk) 21:45, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

Tagaziel, you seem to be under the impression that these references I'm "ignoring" are relevent to the point. I'm not talking about manpower, I'm talking about technology. It's got nothing to do with the Brotherhood being able to defeat the Enclave, they had a giant robot and a player character on their side. It was their ability to harness advanced Player Character weapons tech that won them that fight :P

No, I'm just saying that the article shows bias towards the Outcasts. It is made plain that the Brotherhood has reaped technological rewards from their war with the Enclave. I'm not saying that they're not in a tenuous position or that they haven't suffered great losses due to the war, but they have made great technological gains.

A Knight at The Citadel says in relation to the war with the Enclave "We're reverse-engineering their tech, so they've lost that advantage"

They have enough of it to give it out as payment for services. Scribe Bigsley rewards you with...quite a bit really. They're trading Enclave weapons to Rivet City Security in exchange for aid escorting the water caravans.

Is there evidence to suggest that the Outcasts have had more success reverse-engineering advanced technology than Lyons' Brotherhood has?

Is there evidence that the Outcasts are in possession of a larger amount of advanced tech than Lyons' Brotherhood?

How can the Outcasts have had access to anything "long before" the Brotherhood when they only split a year ago?

I'm not making far reaching conclusions based on flimsy premises, I'm stating the obvious. 17:54, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

I agree, 1 year even if they acquired it RIGHT after the schism is not a long time. All the evidence seems to be in the cataloging and study of what they have, which is only what the terminal entries say. Most likely AN example of each... and what the player gives them.

Though I have to admit, I haven't gotten to that part of the Transcribing project.--Ant2242 (talk) 18:08, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

I apologize, I was under the impression that you were making a broader point than that. There's been a fair share of people arguing against facts, so I might've approached your point with a little too much hostility. Can you propose a more neutral wording, sticking to the facts and references? My love for the Outcasts may indeed be clouding my judgement. Tagaziel (talk) 19:00, 20 June 2013 (UTC)

On reflection I was being rather more vague than I realised, no need to apologise.

I think the inclusion of a section to the effect of "The Brotherhood aren't in control of the Capital Wasteland and here's why" was a good idea and a reasonable clarification. There is only so much territory that can be held by a decimated force, no matter how well equipped they may be.

Statements such as this, however "Lyons' men lack the technical expertise and knowledge necessary to fully understand and maintain them, while the equipment removed by the Outcasts still remains firmly under their control." seem out of place and badly phrased. Why the Outcasts bore mentioning in this section is not immediately clear, nor is it entirely clear what was meant by the statement. That the Outcasts know more about the operation and construction of Enclave equipment, or that they are more proficient in it's use? That the technology Lyons' Brotherhood possesses is in some way not under their control, in contrast with that of the Outcasts?

The Outcasts made off with a lot of equipment but it's worth noting in the article that there wouldn't have been any considerable amount of Enclave equipment (if there was any) in that haul due to the split taking place before the Enclave in the region made themselves known and the Brotherhood came into conflict with them.

The statement that "Lyons' chapter still faces problems in terms of shortage of manpower, equipment and training" seems rather bold, in that the Brotherhood's training was about the only area in which they felt they could compete with the Enclave, and after pushing them out of project purity the consensus seems to be that the Brotherhood's training held up well, knights in the citadel even being confidant enough to say that they have the superior training. A shortage of manpower would seem an obvious problem, as it was before the war (bloody wars are not known to bolster manpower, as far as I know). Equipment is harder to gauge as the degree to which captured Enclave tech has compensated for the loss when the Outcasts left is not crystal clear. How much can the Brotherhood salvage from the mobile crawler? Enough that it's increased quality in comparison to their older tech can compensate for a certain lack of quantity? And how useful is the statement that they have a shortage of equipment if there's the potential for that to change dramatically pending reverse-engineering and, well, looting efforts?

Sorry, maybe I'm getting off track again. I do think it needs to be made clear in the article that the Brotherhood's standing has the potential to radically improve in the near future (or perhaps the present, as of New Vegas) but that the future is uncertain for them. I also think it worth noting that as long as they don't rather seriously mishandle their situation they stand to inherit any Enclave technology that hasn't been destroyed, and keep in mind that in the two weeks that the Lone Wanderer was comatose the Brotherhood had essentially ran right over other Enclave installations. Tristan mentions that they've been clearing out the Enclave and looting tech from their bases in the past two weeks.

Claims that the Outcasts are making the wasteland a safer place with their patrols and that Lyons' chapter is not because they're operating out of the less heavily populated (by humans) DC seem oversimplified. Thinning the Super Mutant herd and holding their attention would surely be more useful than patrols that don't actively hunt down threats, only defending themselves from attackers. Most threats to the common wastelander (Raiders, Slavers etc) would see an Outcast patrol and think "You know what, I think we'll just let these fellas go their way, we'll pick on someone less heavily armed". Some of the only things (other than Deathclaws, who seem to run right over Outcast patrols) that'll reliably engage Outcast patrols without fear are...you guessed it, Super Mutants! And where are the Super Mutants most concentrated apart from Vault 87 itself? DC. Just where the Brotherhood is. 21:00, 21 June 2013 (UTC)