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Talk:Sanders (Fallout 2)

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  1. Enclave military - to general, spoken language, try to distinguish part of armed forces, where he belonged to,
  2. was overseeing - not very exact, was he CO or not?
  3. his ability allowed to procure the FEV-II sample as well as prevent the mutated miners from overcoming the last guards - positive assesment without proofs, we know nothing about his abilities and actions performed by other survived soldiers,
  4. prevent [...] overrunning the camp outside the base - empty camp was not significant military object; the most important thing was blowing the entrance,
  5. loses as heavy were estimated by Sanders as acceptable, before the last person was out from 1st level and before sealing the gate (10 guards, unknown number of other crews).

Are you Sanderse's spokesman? :)--dotz 12:10, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

Ad. 1: We don't know, therefore it's kept general.
Ad. 2: Ditto, we don't know if he was really the commanding officer.
Ad. 3: Captain Pickard reports on the status and that they will hold the last checkpoint. Sanders made the decision to seal the entrance. Add two to two.
Ad. 4: Are you thick? Seriously. The camp outside was where the officers and researchers were stationed; if the miners got out of Mariposa, their sheer numbers and viciousness would grant them victory. Not to mention that the rebellion happened not long (a few minutes) after the pure FEV-II sample was procured, with the sample still within the camp.
Ad. 5: What should he report? That they were unacceptable even though the mission objectives were met?
Shaur M. S. Grizlin 14:22, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

OK, OK, I was just maliciuos.
ad.ad.1 - try with general knowledge and conditionals,
ad.ad.2 - ordered to seal the base, so he was CO then,
ad.ad.3 - OK, still to positive, be more neutral, just for wiki objectivity,
ad.ad.4 - it is camp "consistence", may be that explanation should be added to the article? (camp found by Chosen One is almost worthless from military point of view),
ad.ad.5 - I can try to agree that losses could be quite acceptable (1-5% total Enclave military staff), but did you heard about king Pyrrhus? :) --dotz 19:43, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

Ad.ad.ad.1: The Enclave isn't a predominantly military organization, on the contrary, they're USA in a nutshell.
Ad.ad.ad.2: "was overseeing" and "commanding officer" are pretty synonymous in this case, also, it's a
Ad.ad.ad.3: This is not Wikipedia. Dude. This is Fallout.
Ad.ad.ad.4: You aren't comparing real-world military to the Enclave, the xenophobic remnants of the US government with access to cutting edge technology operating in a nuked out California, are you?
Ad.ad.ad.5: FEV-II was instrumental in the Project's development. Shaur M. S. Grizlin 22:01, 25 December 2007 (UTC)
  1. Sanders was not: a USCC officer and navy officer; you didn't disagree with no air forces personal corps (or branch) presence, so it could be so called US Armed Forced executive branch.
  2. never in the army, huh? talking with more common business language overseeing is Board of Directors duty (in this case CHQ), but commanding (management) is CEO duty (so it is not only semantic problem).
  3. so emotional Fallout, so emotional 50' US government; or full of neurotransmiters.
  4. unfortunatelly yes, no better comparisons, you can be right here, but... let's check what Enclavers left in the camp (ordinary technical journal?)
  5. you really like to wright Filipics, dont't you? Because of heavy losses in Mariposa morons have to be recruited for Camp Navarro :)--dotz 10:11, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
Ad. 1: You are assuming that the Enclave has retained the original United States military hierarchy and branches. We don't know that.
Ad. 2: And never plan to. We write for generic geeks, not soldiers, remember.
Ad. 3: Huh?
Ad. 4: Because they cleaned up pretty good after themselves? Not to mention that with powered armour, how military outposts are estabilished is changed quite dramatically.
Ad. 5: My surname's Filipiak, expect nothing less. As for Navarro... dude, walking straight in, the stupid brazen way, is sometimes best. Shaur M. S. Grizlin 22:13, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

ad ad.1: According to that kind of thinking we know nothing. USCC presence is sure, their head position is lt.col., something like executive branch is present also, there is no colonels within navy (despite of the fact, that its existence is questionable; I bet the navy conservatism against all Enclve strangeness also).
ad ad 2: generic geeks would like to have exact information also (sorry, I am hardass bureaucrat, so diference between overseeing and direct menagement is really sharp for me).
ad ad 3: topic closed, de gustibus non erat disputandum
ad ad 4:base inside was not cleaned (accept minining equipment - mutants couldn't escape) and there is no cutting edge technologies; more interesting pieces like Power Armor or Gauss Pistol are useless for big hand, dumb mutants without scientific lab or even mechanical workshop; temporary excavation camp is not a second oil rig or even Camp Navarro with vertibird plans, canine unit and FOB; true value of Mariposa is FEV and may be strange Melchior's abilities; let's think about Fallout Warfare simulation, where 27 supermutants are storming 3 hex wide base entrance - very bloody Somosierra ending on the fenced area with another small entrance; the Enclave wins when scientist with FEV case catches a vertibird. All Enclave losses there are acceptable :)
ad ad 5: Ruru? (end of the topic)--dotz 09:36, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

Ad.ad.ad.1: My point is, excessive speculation leads to fanon, not canon. As long as we can deduce something from what is in the game, without assuming too many things, we're good.
Ad.ad.ad.2: It's semantics, really. A generic geek doesn't really differentate between overseeing and commanding.
Ad.ad.ad.3: Ditto.
Ad.ad.ad.4: Dude. The supermutants rebelled. There was no time to clean up, they had to hold them back until the FEV sample was out and the entrance blown up. Afterwards, they cleaned up the Enclave camp pretty good. Note: Miners were housed inside the base, on the second level. The guns and ammo there were stolen by Melchior and hidden with his magic talents.
Not to mention that the Mariposa operation was an EXCAVATION not an outpost per se.
Ad.ad.ad.5: D: Shaur M. S. Grizlin 13:33, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

Still ad 3 - it seems Pickard sacrificed himself to give time for sealing the base entrance (level 1 holodisc) and Sanders sacrificed his captain, when he ordered to blow up the gate; kind of moral/military ability;--dotz 14:54, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

Picture

How did you get the picture?