Talk:Unarmed damage

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Can we have a blurb on this page about strength's effects on unarmed damage? I know it is debated at various points whether or not Strength only effects 'melee' damage, effects 'melee' and 'unarmed' damage but with display issues, or what... seems like a good place to clarify it one way or another.

Merge with Melee Damage[edit source]

This appears to be the same statistic judging by the description. IIRC it is indeed the same in F1 and F2, but it could be argued that it is different for F3 (though the article doesn't mention this). Should be either merged or the description should clarify the difference. Golan2781 10:55, 22 February 2009 (UTC)

False Information![edit source]

I believe this page contains entirely false information, information that has unfortunately found its way all across the interwebs.

My own investigations reveal that base Unarmed Damage is 0.5 and raises by 0.05 for ever skill point of "Unarmed" invested there after, for a grand total maximum of +5.50 (rounded up to +6) granted to unarmed attacks.

So rather, Unarmed skill is NOT divided by 4 to calculate damage, it is divided by 20, added 0.5 then rounded up. Very different! The figure listed on this wiki is nearly 5x higher than the one I have found to be true.

Below is a screenshot I took to confirm. Anybody can do the same with some very basic console commands.

In 7 days from now I will modify the article to correlate with these findings, unless somebody can find a source for the original figure.

Hayaku2 15:33, May 4, 2010 (UTC)

The source of the original figure is the Fallout 3 Official Game Guide: "Your Unarmed Damage is 25% of your Unarmed skill. So if you have a skill of 60, you do 15 points of damage. Any Unarmed Weapon Damage is added to this.". -- Porter21 (talk) 16:23, May 4, 2010 (UTC)

I worked out some useful info you guys might like.[edit source]

I can confirm that your unarmed damage is (unarmed skill/20 + 0.5 [rounded up]) NOT (unarmed skill/4) as the official guide says. That means at 100 unarmed skill you deal 5.5 dmg rounded up to 6 and at 200 unarmed skill you deal 10.5 dmg rounded up to 11. The Iron Fist perk adds 15 dmg at rank 3. I've also worked out the formula for calculating the damage critical hits and sneak attack criticals do when you are completely unarmed and how this compares to using unarmed weapons.

For a bare fist critical it's:

(unarmed damage + 2) x 1.5[better crits] + unarmed damage

For an unarmed weapon it's:

(weapon crit damage x 1.5[better crits]) + weapon damage + unarmed damage

For a bare fist sneak attack it's:

(((unarmed damage + 2) x 1.5[better crits] x 1.25[ninja]) + unarmed damage) x 5

For an unarmed weapon sneak attack it's:

((weapon crit damage x 1.5[better crits] x 1.25[ninja]) + weapon damage + unarmed damage) x 5

Because the formula uses unarmed damage + 2 [+23 dmg with 100 skill points and 3 ranks in iron fist] to calculate critical damage rather than a tiny weapon modifier [like the +6 critical damage for brass knuckles] this means you can eventually do more damage with your bare fists than with most unarmed weapons!

For example the character I'm aiming for at the moment will have ~180 skill points in unarmed (10 dmg) and 15 dmg from iron fist and 10 dmg from the glitched point lookout perks, resulting in 35 base damage for his unarmed attacks. He'll also have 10 luck, 10 agility, action boy, bloody mess, finesse, better criticals and ninja etc. to maximise his deadliness. This all means he'll end up hitting harder than a power fist when he gets a critical hit!

Bare Fist critical: (35 + 2) x 1.5 + 35 = 90.5 dmg

Power Fist critical: (20 x 1.5) + 20 + 35 = 85 dmg

Bare Fist sneak critical: (((35 + 2) x 1.5 x 1.25) + 35) x 5 = 521.875 dmg [enough damage to kill a deathclaw in one swing!]

Power Fist sneak critical: ((20 x 1.5 x 1.25) + 20 + 35) x 5 = 462.5 dmg [NOT enough damage to kill a deathclaw in one swing!]

Although power fists do more damage in one hit when not critting they cost more ap to use in VATS and attack much slower outside VATS meaning they do less dmg/sec. AND they need to be constantly repaired unlike your fists. Plus they're not as cool :)

The unique power fist Fisto is roughly equal to bare fists at this point at dealing damage inside and outside VATS, so the only unarmed weapon that is undeniably better is [unsurprisingly] the Deathclaw Gauntlet with its 5x critical chance multiplier and its ability to ignore damage resistance.

Sorry for the huge post but I figured you guys deserved to know all this first because your wiki is the only place on the net that has even some info on the correct calculation of unarmed damage. Everywhere else still says it's unarmed/4. Plus some of you may want to know this info if you're thinking of trying out a new character and were looking for ideas. 22:10, May 17, 2010 (UTC)

But the unarmed weapons add to your unarmed damage. Nitty Tok. 23:47, May 16, 2010 (UTC)
Yep, when using an unarmed weapon like a power fist you will always deal more damage with regular attacks. However the fact that the game uses your base unarmed damage and then adds 2 to it to calculate your critical damage bonus means that with a high enough base unarmed damage you will quickly start to deal more damage on a critical hit with your fists than with weapons like brass knuckles. Brass knuckles have a critical damage addition of just +6 (or +9 with the better criticals perk), but with 100 unarmed skill and all iron fist ranks you'll have +22 damage added on a critical hit or +33 with better criticals!
Assuming a character with 100% unarmed, 3 ranks in iron fist and the better criticals perk. (A reasonable assumption I feel)
In total brass knuckles will do (6 x 1.5) + 21 + 6 = 36 dmg
But bare hands will do ((21 + 2) x 1.5) + 21 = 55.5 dmg
With critical multipliers like better criticals and ninja this unarmed damage +2 becomes even greater. Not only is this relevant for sneak critical hits but it's very easy (using 10 Luck, finesse, ninja and maybe survival guru) to get a 30-33% chance of scoring a critical outside of VATS and a 45-48% chance when inside it.
Assuming a character with 10 luck, finesse and ninja. (Another reasonable assumption I think)
Brass knuckles (36 x 30%) + (27 x 70%) = 29.7 dmg on average.
Bare fists (56 x 30%) + (21 x 70%) = 31.5 dmg on average. Fists are therefore slightly better.
If you use VATS you get a +15% bonus to crit chance and fists become even better thanks to their amazing crit damage. I guess what I'm saying here is that you should never, ever use brass knuckles EVER as you'll actually be weakening your character! Even the extra attack you can get off in VATS doesn't make up for the extra damage you'll be doing with your bare hands.
As final proof (not that I think you need it or want it) I'll show you what a crazily min-maxed character can do. Skip to the bold if you want, most of this was just to help me work it out myself:
Stats: 10 Agility, 10 Luck
Perks: Better Criticals, Ninja, Action Boy, Iron Fist x 3, Survival Guru [snide], Ghoul Ecology and Superior Defender.
Skills: 200% Unarmed[!]
Bare fist damage: 36 dmg
Fisto! damage: 51 dmg
Bare fist critical: (36 + 2) x 1.5 + 36 = 93 dmg
Fisto critical: (25 x 1.5) + 25 + 36 = 98.5 dmg Looking better for the Fisto at the moment.
Bare fist critical chance: 33% or 48% in VATS
Fisto critical chance: 42% or 57% in VATS
Bare fist average damage: (93 x 33%) + (36 x 67%) = 54.81 dmg
Fisto average damage: (99 x 42%) + (51 x 58%) = 71.16 dmg Still looking good for the Fisto, but...
Bare fist attacks per second = 1.5789 (According to this wiki)
Fisto attacks per second = 1.0909 (Again, according to this wiki. If you guys are wrong about this my sums are completely off!) :(
Average damage dealt taking weapon speed into account means:
Fists: 54.81 x 1.5789 = 86.5 dmg/s
Fisto: 71.16 x 1.0909 = 77.6 dmg/s That's right, bare fists will end up doing more damage per second!
And with that extra 15% chance of a crtitcal in VATS:
Bare fist average damage: (93 x 48%) + (36 x 52%) = 63.36 dmg per hit
Fisto average damage: (99 x 57%) + (51 x 43%) = 78.36 dmg per hit
Bare fists can attack 5 times in VATS: 63.36 x 5 = 316.8 dmg on average
Fisto can attack only 4 times in VATS: 78.36 x 4 = 313.44 dmg on average
Yes, in one round of VATS you will end up dealing the same amount of damage as the Fisto thanks to that extra attack!
All in all it means it's possible to make a character who deals slightly more damage than the Fisto but this requires making a very specific character who is really weak (only 1 Endurance and Luck to begin with) until he reaches level 30 and he also has to wear some pretty specific gear as well to reach 200 in unarmed. If you don't want to get to 200 unarmed and are willing to settle for about 180 then you can wear what you like and start off with a decent amount of endurance and luck (but no more than 6 each). You'll barely be affecting your damage and have access to perks like toughness without needing to take lots of ranks in intense training. A character like this should be able to survive pretty well on normal or hard but on very hard you may want to bring out the deathclaw gauntlet as it is by far the best unarmed weapon, but your fists can become the joint second best along with the Fisto. I bet most people wouldn't have expected to hear that! And i like cake! 22:10, May 17, 2010 (UTC)

Main Article change[edit source]

Thanks for the confirmation Nitty, I am glad somebody else thought it necessary to verify my findings.

I am going to change it now, and if anybody wishes to change it back they had better post something more convincing than a link or a strategy guide with questionable accuracy.

An official email from Brethesda or a printscreen of the game engine code would be acceptable, but good luck finding either.

So far we have confirmed that the (0.05 damage x skill point) bonus is accurate and in effect, the only deviating hypothesis I can think of is that since Oblivion counts all unarmed damage against Fatigue and not Health, it is likley that this remarkably small damage bonus was a carry over from older source code, and that the (skill points / 4) forumla was originally calculated against fatigue. Since it is easier to just turn fatigue damage into health damage and add it to the existing heath damage stat, rather than rewrite the way unarmed combat is handled, they might have opted to do this. But again, in the absense of any facts or data I am inclined to put the ballance of probability in favor of the strategy guide simply being wrong.

Hayaku2 04:36, May 17, 2010 (UTC)

Sorry that was me earlier not Nitty I forgot to sign my post. Whoops!

Yeah It's a pity the guide is wrong about these sort of things. My guess is it may have been 1/4 early on in development but the decided to tone it down later and the guide wasn't changed and so it mislead a lot of people. Luckily as I showed above unarmed attacks can become really powerful if you try. And the deathclaw gauntlet is almost overpowered as it can crit 100% and ignores damage resistance. I'd almost go so far as to say melee weapons actually get the short end of the stick as they don't get anything quite that powerful, except maybe the Jack. I haven't really used it enough to say one way or the other. 22:26, May 17, 2010 (UTC)

Firstly, you're running a Pip-Boy mod in that screenshot. How do you know that it also didn't affect unarmed damage? (I assume it's FOOK with a Pip mod.) Nitty Tok. 22:49, May 17, 2010 (UTC)
Yes I am running a Pip-Boy mod, (Pip-Boy Readius v1.0) but I had disabled all other mods for the purpose of doing this test, with the exception of this one: it was too much work to remove (without breaking pip-boy), and there is no logical reason for a simple pip-boy retexture to affect critical game mechanics.
I never have not never will run FOOK or FOOK2, if you doubt the validity of my findings then I suggest you open up Fallout 3 vanilla and spend the 2 minutes it takes to replicate them. For the record, I have also done this but did not bother to make new screen-shots as I didnt think ::anyone would object to such a trivial issue.
In any case my changes have been reverted, pending the descision of some guy called "Porter". We will wait and see...
Hayaku2 03:11, May 18, 2010 (UTC)
Porter21 is one of the two bureaucrats of the Vault. He's got a GECK, I'm just waiting for him to confirm your findings. Nitty Tok. 03:12, May 18, 2010 (UTC)
GECK confirms it. I meant to check after replying to Hayaku's initial question, but somehow I forgot. Could you check whether it's fixed in the GOTY guide and then add it to the proper section on Fallout 3 Official Game Guide? -- Porter21 (talk) 06:36, May 18, 2010 (UTC)
Thanks Porter, good to see some closure on this matter. And thanks, that was one epic wall of text :)
Hayaku2 23:29, May 18, 2010 (UTC)

Sorry to Say but the divide by 20 is the wrong calculation[edit source]

As the title says, the unarmed/20 damage is completely wrong (for New Vegas at least). I do not know what verification process you guys were using, but I can easily disprove it repeatedly.

1) Create a character with 10 ST (+5 Dam) and Heavy Handed (+20% non crit dam)

2) Force Unarmed to 100

3) add perk living anatomy

4) attack a standard bloatfly

Living Anatomy Showas the bloatfly has HP 15 DT 0

If Your unarmed/20 Calculation is correct this character's damage would be (100/20)+0.5 =6 rounded up + 5 from ST = 11 *1.2 = 13.2 = 14 rounded up thus on a non critical hit the bloatfly would be left at 1 HP maximum

However with a ST 9 character with heavy handed and unarmed 100 (I was testing unarmed viability) barehanded I consistantly reduced bloatflies to between -13 and -16 making my unarmed damage between 28 and 31 which is impossible if your formula is correct

--Sonevar 17:14, October 27, 2010 (UTC)

"Verification process" is detailed and backed up very strongly above, including a screenshot. This page deals with the calculation of the "Unarmed Damage" derived stat, which in New Vegas may or may not be different, I don't know. But it's fairly obvious that the calculations for the stat on this page are exactly correct for FO3 unarmed. Sonevar's observations don't match up & instead indicate that things work very differently in New Vegas.
1) Strength has no effect on unarmed damage, and Heavy Handed isn't available in FO3. According to this site, Strength has no effect on unarmed damage in New Vegas, either.
2) Careful when changing a stat, check to see that it's been changed as you need it. Unarmed, in FO3, is the one stat that still contributes (damage climbs at Skill/20) for values over 100 (despite the PiP Boy still showing only 100). When manipulating stats through the console, two commands can increment your stat rather than set it at the specified level.
3) Don't have this in FO3, but the console works.
4) This page isn't really about actual damage delivered, and it's definitely not yet about New Vegas unarmed damage delivered, which sounds like it's significantly different from FO3. The tests here involve the derived stat as observed in the console, not in damage done per strike. However, in my testing of the DCG's inability to ignore armor, I had damage results that were almost exactly what the above formulas predict.
So while Unarmed in New Vegas seems like a totally new animal, I can confirm that the explanation here of unarmed damage in FO3 is pretty much right on the money.
Although I don't have New Vegas, I do see a possible hypothesis. If Heavy Handed is bugged such that it does +20 damage instead of +20%, then the Unarmed Damage might actually be working the same as in FO3. Just a wild guess.
Jellybug 04:24, November 18, 2010 (UTC)