Talk: Great Khans

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Leader[]

The question that was here has been moved to Forum:Great Khans. --Kris 20:09, November 19, 2010 (UTC)

Origins[]

I added a blurb about the likely origin of the Great Khans as a group: PreWar biker gang. In-game evidence and external links to support the theory are under the Notes section. ~Anonymous of the Wastes. December 4, 2010

UPDATE: I would appreciate it if whoever keeps deleting this reference from the Notes section stops. The connection between the Khans and a motorcycle club is fairly obvious for anyone who has the slightest bit of knowledge on the subject of gang culture. I will continue reposting the info until someone provides me with concrete evidence to the contrary. ~Anonymous of the Wastes. December 23, 2010

No, we know the origins of the Khans from Fallout 1, and they were not a biker gang. See the main article about the Khans. Ausir^(talk) 19:12, December 24, 2010 (UTC)

Thank you. I really appreciate taking the time to explain the theory's fault rather than just deleting it outright. As I've never played Fallout 1, I had no idea of the Vault 15 connection. I still think they may have been "inspired" by biker culture, but I'll leave that unsaid =). ~ Anonymous of the Wastes.

Is it worth noting that the Great Khans are connected to the original Khans in name only, as all of the original gang apart from Darion were killed in fallout 1, and Darion himself was killed later on in fallout 2? I would assume if the Great Khans are related to the Khans they would have ben set up by survivors of the New Khans.--GreyMullen 04:40, December 31, 2010 (UTC)

Just realised that either the article on Darion or this article must be wrong. It states on Darion's page that he was 'the sole survivor of the Vault Dweller's massacre when the latter came to the rescue of Tandi'. Yet on this article it states 'After the Khans were nearly eradicated in 2161, some traveled to the Mojave Wasteland and formed the Great Khans'. I don't have any references to state which one is wrong however.--GreyMullen 05:07, December 31, 2010 (UTC)

It's likely that Darion was the sole survivor of the massacre of the "Raiders" location, NOT the sole surviving Khan. There must have been Khan raiding parties far away from Garl and Darion when the Vault Dweller was killing them.--Alexmikli 05:42, January 30, 2011 (UTC)

Fair point, now that I think about it there were apparently 200 odd vipers at the start so I would assume there would be a similar amount of Khans, the 10 odd at the raiders location probably isn't all of them.--GreyMullen 17:00, January 31, 2011 (UTC)

It is Fallout canon, at the end of Fallout 1, the Khans were killed off,"never to be heard from again". Then in 2 Darion appears at an extremely old age and you kill him and the New Khans, so why they even have them in NV is odd to me. Especially when Papa Khan claims the Great Khans to have a long proud history, yea right. --Wert1978 (talk) 15:50, November 25, 2012 (UTC)

Conditions for becoming leader?[]

I'm looking into the required conditions for becoming leader of the Great Khans. One of my couriers succesfully did this, but another failed to initialize the conversation with Papa Khan. It is clear to me that "We are Legion" is a requirement, but there are other conditions. Just having sufficient rep with the Khans and the Legion doesn't do the trick. So far I've tried (via the console) to complete "Render Unto Caesar", set NCR rep to "vilified", Legion rep to "Idolized", and that didn't do it. Does anyone know what other conditions need to be met? I believe these should be found and added to the article, because as it stands, the info is incomplete / incorrect. --DanTheHitman 12:19, December 8, 2010 (UTC)

-I just got the dialogue. I did the "We are Legion" quest, and did "Abba Dabba Honeymoon" quest, as well as killing the NCR in Boulder City and letting the Khans walk away, all without talking to Pappa Khan. I then went into his longhouse with a Khan rep of "Liked", an NCR rep of "Vilified", and a Legion rep of "Neutral". I talked to him about everything except the alliance, then left his longhouse. I waited an hour, walked back in, started dialogue, and he named me his heir. After I killed him without alerting the Khans, Regis recognized me as the leader and asked what I wanted to do, however Karl never gave me his special dialogue. I hope this helps you, and anyone else who wants to become the leader of the Khans. -Anonymous

To become leader of the Great Khans complete the quest We Are Legion at Nelson. You fail Restoring Hope when doing this but all other quests for the NCR at camp Forlorn Hope can be completed before hand and kills can be done with stealth without affecting NCR rep. Now you need to talk to Papa Khan, I was "Idolized" by NCR, Legion and Khans so I'm not sure the exact requirements, and he'll have the dialog available. If you do anything like wiping out the Legion at Nelson you won't have this option anymore so go right after We Are Legion, assuming you already have good Legion and Khan rep.BAtacos (talk) 08:28, 14 April 2022 (UTC)

Reputation.[]

What ways are there to earn positive reputation with the Khans? So far, I've helped the ones get out of Boulder City, done the drug running missions for Diane, given Jack all recipes except one, and finished Cry Me A River. I can't start Oh My Papa, as I want to keep this save available to side with the Legion or NCR (and having the khans with either at Hoover Dam). I killed one Khan in a quest for Bitter Springs, and that brought my rep down a bit. Are there any other ways than what I've said here?--86.42.248.200 19:31, March 22, 2011 (UTC)

Khans everywhere![]

I went and killed Papa Khan for the NCR,now unfortunately wherever I fast travel they are there! An unnamed Khan appears and says "What will we do without Papa?" Its really annoying nobody even saw me do it. Same thing has happened with my friend. HELP!, PSN Dusty_Hammer

This same issue is listed five times in the Bugs section, and I think those should be merged. It seems like these dudes are meant to be assassins, like the ones NCR/Legion send at you when you offend them to a certain point in the game. NPCs set to pursue you can get to you anywhere, even underwater (though I don't think there are any underwater fast-travel points, so maybe that's out in this case). It sounds like some offense triggers these guys to show up--like killing Papa Khan, maybe--but if your Great Khans rep is over some particular level, they don't attack. Clearly a weird mix of behavior, and I'd agree it's a bug (but one bug, not a bunch). GryphonQ (talk) 18:25, May 25, 2013 (UTC)

Khans Massacred Bug?[]

Not exactly sure what this means, may be a bug. When traveling through westside, several westside militia members will say "Heard the Great Khans got Massacred Again. Except this time, there were no survivors" or something similar. I convinced the great Khans to leave red rock, so that quest may be bugged.

EDIT: Nevermind, read the "Oh My Papa" bug section. It's definitely a bug.

--Just ran into a similar problem except mine doesn't seem to be related to any quest. I stealth-killed a few random Khans while visiting Red Rock, and from that point on everyone talks about how they all left the place (the NPCs in the longhouse are still there as if nothing had happened). ~~HBS

Page for generic Khans?[]

Think a page might be due for the generic Great Khan soldiers.

Musical references?[]

I'm finding several of them for the Great Khans here in FNV. "Papa Khan" sounds remarkably like Chaka Khan, a singer from the 70's. Also there is Jack & Diane, the 2 drug dealers, also a song by John Mellencamp of the same name. Anyone else notice anymore song references here? --Ubergamer (talk) 17:48, April 29, 2014 (UTC)

Merged talk page[]

NCR Great Khan article

Title[]

The capitalisation of "War" implies that this name is comprised of proper nouns, and therefore "official". I would suggest moving the page to "NCR-Khan conflict" as a conflict is a way of describing it which is less likely to cause trouble, and then the page can be expanded to encompass the problems the NCR has had with the Khans all the way back to Vault 15.

Another concern I have is the accuracy of this page. From the opening paragraph ("ended shortly after the Massacre that occurred at Bitter springs", and from a quick glance it doesn't get any better further down) this page is basically fanfiction. --Lugiatm (talk · contribs) 18:17, June 13, 2011 (UTC)

I agree this needs cleaning and some organization, but as far as fan fiction goes, most of this information here can be gather from various NPC's in-game. In this instance I would agree to moving this to NCR-Great Khans conflict. As it was an undeclared war in the proper sense where with the NCR vs BoS or Caesar, those are actually wars.--Kingclyde 00:27, June 15, 2011 (UTC)

I don't recall it ever officially "ending", for example; the Great Khans seem to still hold animosity towards NCR, and fight them at Boulder City and Hoover Dam. That would also make the statement that the NCR declared victory incorrect.

The Khans have a long history of conflict with NCR, dating back to the Great War when their ancestors were all packed into Vault 15 together. As it stands, the article is pretty much just a description of the Bitter Springs massacre.

Also, what's the source for any formal declaration of war against BoS or Caesar? --Lugiatm (talk · contribs) 12:38, June 15, 2011 (UTC)

Writing[]

I made like 50 edits to grammar on this page. Did a fifth grader write this? They're was written "There" at least 7 times. You're was "Your" and It's was "its". Please try to type correctly on these pages people. —Preceding unsigned comment added by PipMan (talk • contribs). Please sign your posts with ~~~~!

Inaccurate information[]

A lot of the info here is wrong, for instance Red Rock is not "resource rich". Quite the opposite, Diane even has dialogue on this subject. She specifically states that the canyon does not have enough food or water, they used to send out scavenger teams to collect resources but with the losses at Bitter Springs they can't spare anyone. The bits mentioning, repeatedly, how easily the NCR are "winning" the "war" seem like hero worship (fanfiction as someone said). Furthermore how are a few raids and a military blunder a war? Mictlantecuhtli 04:26, July 30, 2011 (UTC)

Merge[]

I'm gonna remove the merge tag from this and make sure Bitter Springs Massacre is marked to merge into this page; the massacre was part of this ongoing conflict. --Kris 17:22, August 2, 2011 (UTC)

That's fine, I only put the merge tag on this page because the massacre page was a lot cleaner after I went through it and rewrote it and the infobox stuff. Mictlantecuhtli 18:10, August 2, 2011 (UTC)

NCR Favored?[]

The tag on top of the page suggests that this page is pro-NCR. I will admit it was pro-NCR when it was first made, but now I think this page represents both parties equally. I propose the tag should be removed. However I will let the Vault administrators change the tag, because I do not think it is my place to change it. LibertyPrime 01:02, August 23, 2011 (UTC)

When did the war start?[]

Now, me and another user have been having a debate as to when the war with the Great Khans actually started, though we can agree that it has ended. The end result is that it has offshooted into a series of scuffles with the Fiends and Great Khans. Now my point is that the Great Khan War started after the war with the Enclave, because during the war with the Enclave, the New Khans were undeniably scattered and had not yet become the Great Khans. Now, the user I was debating with had stated that the war with the Khans started when the NCR was Shady Sands and the great Khans were the Khans. Points wrong with this theory: 1) It contradicts the title, if this is true then the title should be NCR-Khan war. 2) The Great Khans do not remember their time as the Khans and remember very little of the New Khans. 3) The user had said that the war started in Shady Sands and despite the population could still be considered a war. This is untrue, as this is a definition of war: a state or period of armed hostility or active military operations. A period, this would mean due to the long periods of time when the NCR and the Khans fought each other. The first time was when the Khans kidnapped Tandi, the Great Khans barely remember this if at all. The second time was when the Great Khans began to raid the NCR, as the NCR never fought the New Khans, that was the Chosen One. This would mean that the NCR and the Khans fought in two DIFFERENT wars, due to the long period of "peace" between the two. This peace was actually Papa Khan taking the Great Khans to the Mojave, before the NCR arrived there. That is my point on the situation. --Mr. Youtube 18:24, May 13, 2012 (UTC)

The war has not ended. During the time of Fallout: New Vegas, NCR and the Great Khans will still kill each other on sight, and the Great Khans even have teamed up with the legion to fight against the NCR. It is not yet established canon whether they left the Mojave entirely, or if they went to war alongside the Legion against the NCR. (Won/Lost)
The war between the Khans and the NCR started after the building of Shady Sands. After the Vault 15 inhabitants decided to leave, their diversity forced them apart and this created 3 of the most powerful raider gangs known to California. (The rest were the ones who created Shady Sands.) The Khans were the most focused on raiding Shady Sands, and made frequent visits to loot and pillage. They took it even further by even kidnapping their leader's daughter. Over time, Shady Sands became the NCR, and used their vast resources to officially wipe out the three major raider gangs in the region. The Khans were essentially annihilated, and they later became the New Khans. After another campaign, they were almost wiped out again, in which they became the Great Khans and moved to the Mojave. The war never stopped. The NCR has been hunting down and trying to kill every member of the Khans ever since the events of Fallout 1, which was long before the NCR ever discovered the BoS or the Enclave.
You are right on one thing. We should change it to the NCR-Khan war. I will discuss this with others to see if we can have it changed. Although, the titles still doesn't contradict itself. Names change over time, and just because Shady Sands is now named the NCR and the Khans have changed to the New Khans and then the Great Khans, doesn't mean that they're different groups fighting a different war. This is not true even in the slightest. That would be as if my family had a feud with the family living across from us. They could change their family name as many times as they wish, it would still be the same feud being fought by the same people and bloodlines.
Ah, I forgot to contest one of your points. While the New Khans were vastly weak and small compared to the original Khans, they were still an enemy of NCR because of their regular raiding of NCR, and they were constantly on the run because of NCR's compaigns to eradicate all raider parties in the California area. During the events of Fallout 2, there are currently 2 options. The Chosen One is sent by President Tandi herself as an arm of the NCR, in which you kill almost every member of the New Khans. Or, if end up leaving them alone and finding the GECK needed on the Oil Rig instead, (Since you have to visit the Vault run by the intelligent deathclaws first.) the NCR brutally push the squatters out and massacre the New Khans themselves. ^Skål! 18:50, May 13, 2012 (UTC)

Your first point: The article disagrees with you, but if the war has not ended then the Fiends are most certainly involved. I, on this, do agree with you.
Wiping out the Khans would make a sort of Raider-Genocide, as Rwanda and Operation Bluestar prove, Genocide is not war. The NCR has fought the New Khans, but never to the extent of which they fought the Khans or the Great Khans, the Chosen One took out the New Khans, not the NCR. Wiping out the Khans has place as Genocide, Bitter Springs Massacre is a massacre (aka. not genocide), as it was perceived they were attacking the Great Khans fighting force.
Thank you on agreeing with me on the name change. And as to the fact that Shady Sands is the NCR, that is totally wrong. If the Russian Empire had a war with say the Ottoman Empire and then the Soviet Union had a war with Turkey for basically the same reasons Russia fought the Ottomans but with slight discrepancies, would this be the same war?
Just because they raided the NCR and Tandi hired an agent to wipe them out [a prelude to the Khan genocide I mentioned earlier], does not mean war. War is not acted out by one man fighting twenty, or twenty fighting a group of ten scouts. It doesn't work like that. --Mr. Youtube 19:17, May 13, 2012 (UTC)

Then I will have to more thoroughly comb through this article page and make sure it is correct with established Fallout lore. And no, the Fiends are not involved in this war. The Great Khans supplying drugs to the Fiends in no way entails a connection between the war of NCR/Great Khans and the battle of NCR/Fiends.
Genocide is a by-product of war. There is no getting around it. And just because they are left with hunting down stragglers doesn't mean the war is over. The war is over when the enemy is dead and they no longer present a threat to you.
Yes, it does make more sense to read out as NCR Vs. Khans, I agree. The line is more blurred when you are pointing out a specific name they chose. As for your comparison, I don't see how it holds any merit. The entirety of the Russian Empire was not all part of the USSR, as the USSR were only a single-party state, run by a religious party. (Although there is no question that their influence controlled Russia to a great degree.) Shady Sands was completely a part of the NCR as its founding state, and if NCR went to war, so would they, as they were all affected. Not just one group of people.
I refer back to my second counter-point in this message. The massacre of the New Khans was only a by-product of the over-all war between the NCR and the Khans. Which was kept alive by the New Khans blood relation to the original Khans and their frequent attacks and raids on NCR land. It wasn't kept alive merely because the Chosen One happened to find them in a random Vault. (And this is not even established canon. It's entirely possible as I said that the NCR found them instead and wiped them out.) ^Skål! 19:38, May 13, 2012 (UTC)

No, because the Fiend NCR conflict spins directly out of the NCR-Great Khan conflict, and is fueled by the Khans giving the Fiends drugs. Thus the only thing that is a bi-product of anything is the Fiend-NCR conflict being a bi-product of the NCR-Great Khan conflict.
Find me ONE link that says genocide is a bi-product of war. Operation Bluestar damn well was not a bi-product of war and if you say Rwanda was... well... shame. Genocide can occur during war, yes, but it is anything but a bi-product. And since when does war end when the opposition is all dead? In Libya there are still supporters of Gaddafi, but that war damn well ended two days after Gaddafi died. WWII a couple of months after Hitler died, not after all the Nazi's died. The Samnite Wars after Samnium was conquered, not after all the Samnites were dead.
How little do you know of Lenin? The comparison is totally valid! The Russian Empire can be debated as the founding state of the USSR. And if the NCR truly was created during the war, then if the Soviet Union happened during the Empire's war if Turkey (this is not real, just saying, the USSR was created in its own war that curtailed with WWI at some points), would the Russian Revolution be a part of the War with Turkey, would it actually be a USSR-Turkey War? No, that is why NCR-Khan War, if it is a war and not just a series of skirmishes, as kidnapping Anwar al-Awlaki kidnapping Obama's daughter does not make war, and the NCR-Great Khan War are two separate but connected wars.
Blood relation does not keep alive a war, politics and repeated fighting do. When the Khans fled to the Mojave, you can say that the NCR-Khan War ended. When the Great Khans started raiding the NCR, you can say that the NCR-Great Khan War started. --Mr. Youtube 19:53, May 13, 2012 (UTC)

The Fiends were a gang of drug users that had been terrorizing the Mojave since before the NCR ever showed up. Yes, the Great Khans were supplying some drugs, (A very minor amount, I might add.) but this in no way resulted in the battle between NCR and the Fiends, as they were fighting the moment they first discovered the NCR. The only reason the Great Khans were even supplying drugs to them is because their current home in Red Rock Canyons had nothing in the way of resources to support themselves. So they relied on selling drugs to multiple factions, not just the Fiends.
I don't need to provide a link to prove that genocide is a by-product of war. Look at how many people died during WWI/WWII. Look at how many died during the Vietnam War. Etc. etc. What we call the Genocide which involved the deaths of any non-pure German and any non-Germans, pales in comparison to how many people die in the actual wars. What made that particular Genocide so cruel is how many innocents were killed as a result.
The Russian Empire was actually before the Russian Revolution which led up to the USSR taking over. And while the Soviet Union was almost in complete control of say, Russia, in your example, they could still not just go to war and make it Russia's war as well. That's just not how it works. As for your example with Anwar al-Awlaki... you do realize we are already at war with al-Qaeda?
Blood relation does indeed spark wars. Wars are started over many things. Religion, politics, bad blood, or even because of a woman. The Khans put fear into the NCR and almost wiped them off the map before they could even make a name for themselves. Because of this, the NCR pledged to rid California and all future states of the NCR from raider threats. The Khans were on the top of their list. The war did not end when the Great Khans moved to the Mojave though. That's actually one of the primary reasons why the NCR first discovered the Mojave and consequently, Hoover Dam. ^Skål! 20:09, May 13, 2012 (UTC)

I would actually like to abstain on the whole USSR/Russian Nation topic. It has been awhile since I have looked into that subject, and so I don't know enough to continue a debate on it until I have refreshed my memory on the subject.

^Skål! 20:20, May 13, 2012 (UTC)

Okay, I'll go with you on the whole Fiends thing, its pretty useless to this debate anyways, lets leave this part at your point.

Yes you do, because genocide existed before World War II. Genocide occurred during World War II and may have caused it, but Europe was unstable after WWI and Genocide and War was bound to occur either way, it just so happened that it occurred at the same time. Genocide was not a bi-product of war in Rwanda, in Bluestar, in the massacres of Jews during the Egyptian Pharoah's times, during the Mughal Reign in India, ten years ago in Gujarat. Genocide is not a bi-product of war, it can occur at the same time, but that does not make it a bi-product. Hence proving my point.
First, you just proved my point right there in your statement about Russia. Second, yes of course I realize we are at war with al-Qaeda, but say we were not and Anwar kidnapped Obama's daughter, would he lead his whole nation to war just because of that. Now I understand that Shady Sands and the Khans had conflicts with each other, but their conflict was not war, it was more reminiscent to the April 2010 Kyrgyzstan Riots. Just because the nation of Kyrgyzstan (in this situation Shady) was fighting their own blood (rioters) did not mean they were at war.
Blood can spark wars. That was my point, it does not have to be the spark, but it can be. Your statement about the NCR's vow, I agree with that, but that would make it a Global War Against Raiders like the War Against Terror, but not something directly targeted at the Khans, though they were a huge part of it, I'll admit. But other groups like Vipers and Jackals were affected even worse, why not make a page NCR-Viper War? Or why not just make a War against Raiders page, because that seems to be more accurate to what you are saying. Yes I know the War on Terror includes several smaller wars, and this War on Raiders must as well. Their first war - NCR-Khan War/Shady-Khan War, their second war NCR-Great Khan War. And if memory serves correctly, NCR may have entered the Mojave because of the Great Khans, but they only came into conflict with them there because Peterson wanted to annex the tribals, of which the Khans had joined. The NCR-Khan War seems to be all this NCR raider genocide, Shady Sands, pursuit to the Mojave topic, NCR-Great Khan War is what includes the Great Khans relations with the Fiends, Bitter Springs and all.
Okay, lets stop on Russia okay, you'll have to refresh yourself on a lot of things to truly understand Lenin. Things like Rasputin, Anastasia, its a mess. --Mr. Youtube 21:44, May 13, 2012 (UTC)

As much as I have enjoyed this cross-examination between our opinions and facts on this matter, I am out of time to write out extended responses for now. Might be for the best, because it seems we're at an impasse. I would recommend sending this inquiry to one of our two Bureaucrats, and seeing what they have to say over the matter after reading our quite thorough debate. Hopefully they will be able to settle matters in a way that satisfies us both. Have a good one. ^Skål! 21:46, May 13, 2012 (UTC)

Before I leave this be for now, I would like to express that I absolutely agree with something you said. There should be a page that covers the fighting between NCR and the 3 leading raider bands of California. Seems like an excellent idea to me, and I'm surprised we don't have it already.

^Skål! 21:49, May 13, 2012 (UTC)

You two, I suppose that we could merge this page into that one then, maybe. I'll talk to a beau soon, see what they say. --Mr. Youtube 22:45, May 13, 2012 (UTC)

Slight title change[]

Would it make more sense if the page was call NCR-Khan wars (with wars being lower case)? I mean the conflict is relatively the same with each variation of Khans being slightly different and it seems that each war is a continuation since it's very clear that both factions are sworn enemies. Kind of like how World War II is a continuation of WWI. --Matthew Paul (talk) 04:56, October 31, 2015 (UTC)

Seconded, but as 'NCR-Khan War'. "Space. The final frontier." ~The-Artist-64 (talk) 15:22, February 21, 2016 (UTC)The-Artist-64